Brass canteens

[dsuursoo]

whilst flipping through a book on camping and wilderness survival(that's actually the title, BTW), i came across an interesting tidbit.

brass, as it turns out, has some antibacterial properties. it's apparently the copper leaching into the water. bacteria like E. Coli can't survive for any significant length of time in brass water containers. after 48 hours, levels are often below the detection threshold in tests.

now, it's no replacement for boiling/microfiltering/treating, but it might be an option to keep your water clean during long trips, or for any of you who use cistern systems at home, a brass lining certainly couldn't hurt. people drink several liters per day for a lifetime without any harm.

interesting, no?

i did some CAD modeling and while they wouldn't be terribly difficult to make, they would be expensive... maybe not totally practical.

but handsome, yes.

 

[Swampman]

There are lots of nice copper canteens on the market for reasonable prices. Will they do the same thing? I've been using them for years.

 

[dsuursoo]

quite likely. i'll look into it.

 

[Black Hand]

....i came across an interesting tidbit.

brass, as it turns out, has some antibacterial properties. it's apparently the copper leaching into the water. bacteria like E. Coli can't survive for any significant length of time in brass water containers. after 48 hours, levels are often below the detection threshold in tests.....

So do copper, zinc, gold, silver, etc.... I fail to understand why people wish to re-invent the wheel. Get a canteen (any kind you like) and a good filter. Problem solved.

Realistically, parasites (like Giardia) probably cause more problems than bacteria.

Think about it....how long does the water stay in your canteen before you drink it?

 

[Stophel]

Copper (and hence, copper alloys) have mild antibacterial qualities. I would NOT rely on it for anything.

The previous poster mentioned Giardia. That's a much bigger problem than bacteria. Another problem is farm poisons.

 

[dsuursoo]

i'll agree that brass/copper would be no replacement for boiling/purifying. but out in the wilderness, you don't have to worry about farm poisons so much, thankfully.

but no, it wouldn't do much at all to stop parasites.

thought it was just an interesting thing, that folks in undeveloped countries have been drinking this water that's hardly treated at all(if it's even treated), and having no health problems tied to the water.

and honestly, most studies have found that giardia cases result more often from not washing your hands before eating than from drinking water.

turns out that the rates among hikers/campers who use filters/treatment and those who don't are about the same(2%), so that brings it into question, doesn't it?
http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/Giardia.htm#_edn2

or the cliff notes version: http://www.imrisk.com/ultragiardia.htm

or: http://www.wemjournal.org/pdfserv/i0953-9859-004-02-0147.pdf
http://www.wemjournal.org/pdfserv/i1080-6032-006-02-0162.pdf

i've been in true survival situations in the wilds without filters or treatment of any kind. i was just really particular about keeping my hands extremely clean.

never got giardia. sure, i could have been one of the lucky 98%, but if it's as much a danger as everyone thinks, i should have had a raging case of it at least once(having gone into the hills to have gotten it at least once statistically).

but the other good point: how long does water stay in your canteen- is very valid. i use a camelbak. 3 liters is between a day to two days, depending on availability of water. the canteen i modeled up was a 3.5 liter container, so if i went from canteen to water bladder, maybe two days.

all theoretical right now, but it was an interesting tidbit, at least for me.

 

[Black Hand]

i'll agree that brass/copper would be no replacement for boiling/purifying. but out in the wilderness, you don't have to worry about farm poisons so much, thankfully.

I would beg to differ. Think about the "acid rain", environmental/industrial pollutants that are deposited in water from the sky....

...thought it was just an interesting thing, that folks in undeveloped countries have been drinking this water that's hardly treated at all(if it's even treated), and having no health problems tied to the water.

Reporting of waterborne illnesses is spotty at best in developed countries, and probably nearly non-existant in less-developed countries. Also many of these countries are rampant with waterborne illnesses (bacterial, viral and parasitic).

...and honestly, most studies have found that giardia cases result more often from not washing your hands before eating than from drinking water.

Fecal-oral tranmission all the same whether the bacteria are in the water, on your hands or deposited on your hands from the water.


For the small cost of a filter, is it really worth the chance? Nothing like being 15-20 miles in and vomiting/crapping your guts out to turn a fun trip into a life-threatening situation.

 

[dsuursoo]

i'll agree that brass/copper would be no replacement for boiling/purifying. but out in the wilderness, you don't have to worry about farm poisons so much, thankfully.

I would beg to differ. Think about the "acid rain", environmental/industrial pollutants that are deposited in water from the sky....

...thought it was just an interesting thing, that folks in undeveloped countries have been drinking this water that's hardly treated at all(if it's even treated), and having no health problems tied to the water.

Reporting of waterborne illnesses is spotty at best in developed countries, and probably nearly non-existant in less-developed countries. Also many of these countries are rampant with waterborne illnesses (bacterial, viral and parasitic).

...and honestly, most studies have found that giardia cases result more often from not washing your hands before eating than from drinking water.

Fecal-oral tranmission all the same whether the bacteria are in the water, on your hands or deposited on your hands from the water.


For the small cost of a filter, is it really worth the chance? Nothing like being 15-20 miles in and vomiting/crapping your guts out to turn a fun trip into a life-threatening situation.

well, there's two ways to reply to that... one is the overblown, mildly humorous and somewhat scathing reply. the other is the fairly serious reply that might not be on topic.

i think i'll go for mostly serious.

i've got this particular 'thing' about my gear. i don't pack a single item that doesn't have at least two uses, and preferably three. the only exception are a couple items in my survival kit that never leaves my person unless i'm sleeping in my tent(yes, the tent has more than one use).

so find me a filter that weighs less than three ounces, can also carry water, be used as a drinking vessel, brew coffee and cook spaghetti, and hey, i might buy it.

but, having been in situations where it's not available, i've never fallen prey to giardia. i just take some simple precautions. finding the source of the spring is one of the best ones. ground filtering is suprisingly effective. you also minimize any possible animal contaminations. happily, however, waterborne fecal transmission is measurable in parts per million to billion depending on water source size, and contamination from your hands is somewhere in the parts per thousand range.

i like the way i'm doing it.

getting 20 miles in and developing montezuma's revenge is what immodium AD is for. i personally pack 2 dozen tablets in a little vial in my survival pouch. i get sick, i take six and head for home. i can worry about being righteously blocked up once i get back to civilization and have treatment options available to me. in the meantime, there's no worry of dehydration or incapacitation.

 

[Black Hand]

I'm glad it works for you.
Personally I pack a filter and a canteen. Being trained as a microbiologist, I refuse to take unnecessary chances....

 

[dsuursoo]

i boil. 100% effective when brought to a rolling boil. if you're worried, hold it at a boil for a minute or two, but it's not needed.

i also never need to change elements or worry about clogs. there's never a chance of the filter cracking or failing and passing contaminated water either. there's no moving parts to fail, and hey, it only cost me 18 bucks at the army-navy shop. the really good filters tend to run a bit more i notice. i've also never seen a filter for field use that filters viruses.

still kind of neat how copper is antibacterial, innit?(dragging this thread back on course)

 

[Black Hand]

...i've also never seen a filter for field use that filters viruses...

Many filters on the market use a size-exclusion of 0.22um. That pretty much takes care of viruses for commercial and medical applications, and strangely enough in water too.

Yep, copper is neat stuff....

 

[dsuursoo]

...i've also never seen a filter for field use that filters viruses...

Many filters on the market use a size-exclusion of 0.22um. That pretty much takes care of viruses for commercial and medical applications, and strangely enough in water too.

Yep, copper is neat stuff....

hey, i suppose that's the end result of having a system that works really well. you stop looking for a replacement.

yeah, copper is cool like that. i've never understood the property though, the whole killing bacteria thing.

 

[Black Hand]

yeah, copper is cool like that. i've never understood the property though, the whole killing bacteria thing.

It has to do with the ions produced. Some are directly toxic to living organisms, others serve to poison cellular systems or enzymes. The end result is the same, something ends up dead.

 

[dsuursoo]

yeah, copper is cool like that. i've never understood the property though, the whole killing bacteria thing.

It has to do with the ions produced. Some are directly toxic to living organisms, others serve to poison cellular systems or enzymes. The end result is the same, something ends up dead.

slick. the oglio-something or other effect?

hm... while it's not something to rely on, but it would justify using copper tube/pipe to run water from the springhouse to the cistern, which might be beaten copper sheet, if i ever get to building that hunting lodge(which presupposes i'd have to shell out for 30+ acres in north-central washington). i'd probably have a filter in place anyways, unless i had a totally closed spring, but i might have it anyways just to be sure(a lodge wouldn't be the same requirements as my roving gear).

thoughts on that? certainly couldn't hurt.. and if the spring froze in winter and the water sat, it'd probably keep it from getting contaminated.

 

[lonewolf465]

Over the last 35 years, I have backpacked all over the western US and Canada. We have always been meticulous about taking care of our water and never had any problems----until I was in a remote portion of the Yukon and let the knothead cook prepare a meal. We all got giardia. What an experience. Never knew you could be so sick, cold, sweaty, weak, crampy, and nasty feeling all at the same time! I was 200 miles from home when it hit. Took 6 hours to get there. What a long drive home. Went right to the hometown dr and got the cure. My dr believed by diagnosis. My buddy's dr didn't and he had 3 "relapses" before the dr prescribed the right Rx. Boil the water, filter it, whatever, wherever you are. Any short cuts aren't worth the "nuclear" experience!

 

[dsuursoo]

amen. i've come down with montezuma's revenge(not quite giardia, but sometimes used to refer to it) once or twice in my life, ever. i was lucky the second time, it manifested primarily as tremenously loud flatulence and a constant sick feeling(and the farts echoed off the walls of the valley my parents live in, really quite funny to hear.), but the first time is when i learned the immodium trick, whilst overseas in some sandy place or another. it kept me functioning fairly well till i got to a doctor, though i was still miserable i was less incapacitated.

 

[Finnwolf]

What are your other 2 uses for "Immodium AD"? :wink:

 

[dsuursoo]

What are your other 2 uses for "Immodium AD"? :wink:

ahahaha. it's like i said, one of the few items that has more or less one use. a few things in the first aid kid are like that, just by their nature.

though i imagine it might be usuable as a fish toxin... hm. i wonder.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Actually it is the cooper in the brass that is antibacterial. So a pure copper canteen is actually better than brass.

 

[dsuursoo]

Actually it is the cooper in the brass that is antibacterial. So a pure copper canteen is actually better than brass.

cept for the whole being softer than brass. it'd have to be a lot thicker and heavier to match the strength, i reckon.