Brass revolvers no good???

[Poor Private]

I went to a civil war reenactment this weekend(got home 3 hours ago). A Confederate Lt. who professes to be the armourer of his unit stated "500-1000 rounds of live fire and blanks renders a brass revolver no good. Never buy a brass revolver. Look what it says in the Dixie gun book about them." Nothing I could say about personal experience would sway him. I need some actual facts if there is any out there to brace this feller with. Does anyone have any kind of firing record to dispute this guy? I have 3 brass frame revolvers 2 in .36 and 1 in .44 but I havn't yet put that many rounds through any of them. I have owned one since May, one for about a year and the other a couple of years.
Or (gulp) is what this feller says, true?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Buying a brass frame revolver is only a good idea if you have absolutely no other option. Like you are a re-enactor whose persona would have carried one or you are very poor and can't afford a steel gun or some such. They will last a bit longer than your friend says if you use very light loads but they are not a good choice for serious shooting. Full loads that don't have any effect on a steel frame will cause a brass framed revolver to shoot loose inside of 500 rounds in some cases and definitely by 1000 shots. They were originally only made in .36 caliber because this caliber uses lighter charges and very often the frames were actually of bell metal which is tougher than brass. They are built to a price today, and brass generally is more expensive than steel, so Lord knows what sort of rubbish they're using to keep the price down and under-cut the steel guns.

I have had the same brass framed revolver, a Griswold & Gunnison, for many years and it is as tight as new. It has only been shot with very light loads and is actually pretty accurate. I got it in a trade along with some other muzzleloading gear. I have found that it is at its best when used as a paper weight on my desk. This is the surest way to minimize the chances of it loosening up, but there are no guarantees.

 

[Don]

As Russ T said, light to moderate loads and a brass frame will last years probably more than a 1000 rounds. I own a few but doubt I've put more than a 100 rounds through any of them. I only plink with them a few times per year and if I intended to do serious shooting I'd use one of my steel revolvers. Brass frame guns used to be an economical way to get into cap and ball shooting but they seem over priced to me these days.

Don

 

[torn moc]

WELLL..i BEG TO DIFFER. I been shootin my brass griswold since the late 70's on a regular basis..light loads of course and it is still going strong. No signs of problem stretching or warping yet....

 

[1911nutjob]

I've gotta agree with Russ on this one. I own a brass frame .36 colt replica, which changed hands a few times over the past decade or so, but came back to me not too long ago. It's an 1862 police pietta, which has seen quite a few heavy loads, some of those quite stupid due to my youth when first acquired. The timing was never quite correct when it was new, and I don't think those "stupid" loads did anything to change that, but there is a bit of frame stretch now, maybe 1000 loads fired. When new, a feeler gauge between the barrel and cylinder would measure about .003" gap. No matter how tight you fit the wedge, it now measures about .008". I'm planning on firing it for the first time in fifteen years on wednesday along with my recently completed howdah kit, and will post my observations if you're interested.

 

[mykeal]

0.008" cylinder end gap hardly qualifies as shooting loose. There are a heckof a lot of steel frame NIB revolvers out there with more gap than that.

Russ T's dissertation is a bit on the pessimistic side in my experience, but he does make some good points. I certainly agree with the light loads theory, but I cannot conclude from that that brass frames are only good as paperweights.

PP, a question: why do you feel the need to convince this blowhard armorer that brass frame guns are ok? I have a sister-in-law who thinks the sun rises and sets with Obama, and no recitation of facts will ever convince her otherwise; I don't feel the need to waste my precious time helping her become a rational human being again. Give it up - there's no up side to it and you're just helping the universe reach a state of zero entropy sooner.

 

[Poor Private]

mykeal,
It's the idea that he is teaching and training all the men in his unit this balderdash. He is also professing that them "found" India muskets in that warehouse are ok to use, and the way to go. Those muskets have been picked over a few times now and only the dregs are left in my opinion- why else would they be selling for the price they are. They are even advertised as pieced together. He admits that they have rusty barrels, bad locks, and other parts needing replaced. Why would a person spend all those hours cleaning,dollars spent on the material to clean it and buying parts to end up with a musket that may have a bulge in the barrel, and I wouldn't use it for live firing at all. But for a couple of hundered dollars more you can buy a NIB proofed gun.
If all your ever goin to use it for is firing blanks a person might as well buy a cap gun. But i should let this go for another topic in a different catagory.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I've owned 2 brass-frame '58 Pietta .44's that gave me good service.
I usually shot light loads which was the 19 gr 3F charge recommended in the pamphlet that came in the box with both pistols and loaded round ball. if memory serves this is a .38 spcl caseful of 3F.
a stouter load of 3F was a .357 mag caseful which I loaded and shot many of maybe a few hundred in both pistols. I carried this load when out camping.
I fired some max charges of 3F measured from an AK case about 28 grs this load was stout and I shot maybe 100 or so of them with no apparent damage.
I sold both pistols and the fellas that bought them still get good service from them there is no apparent loosening.
I believe it likely would be wise to use the target charges in the brass guns as the normal load though.

 

[Mulebrain]

I have an older Navy Arms 1851 from the 60's. It has been rendered pretty much useless! Over time with full loads, the recoil keeps hammering the ring on the receiver. This really opens up the distance between the cylinder and the barrel.

I have been thinking of a way to repair this with a stainless collar :hmm:

btw, you can really see the impressions made by the cylinder as well!

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I saw one recently that had been shimmed with a steel washer, but I'm not sure how it was done. Might be the quickst way to tight it back up.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Mykeal, they aren't just good as paper weights--they are excellent!

With light loads and proper care so that stress is reduced, they can hold up alright, but they are no where near the gun that a steel frame revolver is. I don't think the biggest worry is frame stretch anyway...it's having the cylinder arbor shoot loose from the pounding even light loads give it. I wouldn't recommend one for a first gun or to anyone who can afford the steel frame to begin with.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Think of it like hitting a brass bolt with hammers. Even hitting a brass bolt lightly with a 2oz tack hammer will eventually cause it to deform. In colt style the threads of the arbor into the brass frame is the weak point for stress from repeated firings. Some brass is better than other, but it still succumbs to multiple blows, whether it is 300 or 4,000.

Another factor is the bore and forcing cone vs the chamber size. If the chamber lines up well with the bore and the ball doesn't have to be swaged into the bore as hard, the gun will last longer. The problem is that brass frame guns are usually cheaper. Cheaper in manufacture and fit. It is partially the fit that shortens their useful life.

I had a 36 brass frame Remmy repro. About as cheap and poor quality as a shooter can get without being overtly dangerous. When the hammer was cocked, it felt like grit was in the works. The cylinder alignment was so bad it spit lead out the sides. I never kept it long enough to worry about the frame stretching. But I figured with all that hammering from the chambers being slightly out of alignment, it wouldn't take long.

 

[Leatherbark]

My first brass revolver was an F.I.E Remington..............I'll swear it came with a 15 thousandths gap new. It also taught me how to shoot a revolver as it was pretty accurate. It digested a lot of 30 grain loads before it pounded the ratchet impression into the frame at the rear increasing the already large gap even more...........Finally junked it and bought a Navy Arms 60 Rep Colt type ............Didnt last long before the Cylinder pin bacame loose as a goose in frame.....................But then I bought a Brass Frame 60 Colt from Gander Mtn made or imported by "ARMSPORT"...........I'll swear that revolver was super accurate with 25 grains of 3f and it was shot hundreds and hundreds of times for ten years before I gave it to a friend who never shot it just hung it on wall........It was as tight as new.......Evidentally some brass frames are stronger than others

Bob

 

[Tinker2]

Evidentally some brass frames are stronger than others

I have seen a lot of the older brass frames that were junk from the start.
Some of the older Cabelas ones had brass hands in them to turn the cylinder.

I would not recommend getting a brass frame.

I have a copy of a Griswold. I have had it a long time. From the 60’s.
It out shoots all of my steel frame cap & balls.


Tinker2

 

[1911nutjob]

0.008" cylinder end gap hardly qualifies as shooting loose. There are a heckof a lot of steel frame NIB revolvers out there with more gap than that.

Russ T's dissertation is a bit on the pessimistic side in my experience, but he does make some good points. I certainly agree with the light loads theory, but I cannot conclude from that that brass frames are only good as paperweights.

PP, a question: why do you feel the need to convince this blowhard armorer that brass frame guns are ok? I have a sister-in-law who thinks the sun rises and sets with Obama, and no recitation of facts will ever convince her otherwise; I don't feel the need to waste my precious time helping her become a rational human being again. Give it up - there's no up side to it and you're just helping the universe reach a state of zero entropy sooner.

OK, Russ' post might have been a bit pessimistic, but there might be some truth to it. I didn't mean to imply that my gun was no longer serviceable-that remains to be seen until wednesday and function seems to be OK, but the stretch is measurably present at the gap. Is the gap on one of these old smokers supposed to be wider than say, a smith 686?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

No, the gap shouldn't be any wider than on a modern revolver, and none of my steel frame guns are. The brass frame guns are more cheaply made to hit a price point, so you may or may not have too wide a gap. You can set the wedge a little deeper, but this usually results in an uneven gap. With some skilled gunsmithing the problem can be fixed, but the guns just aren't worth the cost.

 

[mykeal]

Mykeal, they aren't just good as paper weights--they are excellent!

:rotf: :v

 

[Mike Brooks]

They make great practice pieces for engravers! :wink:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

True! And then they make even better paperweights!

 

[renovato]

I've never owned a brass framed revolver, so I have no personal experience to share. But I have been browsing black powder related forums since they first started appearing on the internet. What I've seen over the years is that every black powder related forum, this one included, has had occasional posts from guys who have shot their brass framed guns with heavy loads and they gave out after enough punishment. That part I take as gospel. I've also seen zillions of posts from folks who have shot theirs with light loads for years with no problems. So, it appears that brass frames are long lasting with light loads, but heavy ones will destroy them in time. I only shoot light loads in my revolvers, but I'll stick to steel framed guns just the same.