brass vs. steel frame revolvers

[Artificer]

Well that's the deal, when he told me that I figured there are two issues, one is throat wear, frame stretching etc. and the second is just all points of wear getting everything out of tune. In any event, the evidence seems to be that with moderate powder charges a brass frame ought to last as long as the rest of the revolver.
One side note- these brass frames historically were made in the Confederacy during the Civil War and they were 36 caliber. Some had round Dragoon type barrels and I've always sort of liked their appearance. The
y were used with combustible cartridges that often had rather small charges- around 15-17 gr. fffg so they pr okay.

Please understand I am not being critical of you and don't mean disrespect to the guy who owns the brass frame you mentioned, but I just can't believe he has fired 25,000 target rounds through it without major rebuild being necessary. I think he overestimates how many rounds he fired. 2,500 rounds, sure, but not 25,000 rounds without needing major rebuild - as I have seen MANY "brass" framed revolvers that needed major rebuild or retirement as a wall hanger long before that. I wonder if he perhaps is mixing up his estimated number of rounds?

I only bring this up because I hope most people won't get the impression they will get up to 25,000 target rounds out of brass framed revolvers.

Though "Brass" Frame is how we normally describe them, in fact the original Confederate and most of the reproductions have bronze frames that look like brass. The normal type of "brass" available during the UnCivil War would not have stood up to much shooting at all. The metal the Confederates used was called "gun metal," or "red brass" that today we know as types of bronze, which is a much tougher metal. The Confederates used the same "gun metal" (bronze) that cannon were made from.

Gus

Edited to add: I think it important to distinguish between what the Confederate Armories called "Red Brass" and what some of us think of as "Red Brass" today. Many original Confederate Sword Hooks, studs, scabbard hooks, etc. have a "reddish" cast to them. This is because they used a lower grade of brass with more copper in them than then North did. However, that was not what they called "Red Brass."

 

[Kansas Jake]

Agree on the 25,000 rounds. That would be a huge amount of shooting with any kind of handgun. I'm not saying a person couldn't shoot that many rounds through a cap and ball, but that is a lot of loading and shooting.

 

[nightwolf1974]

Agree on the 25,000 rounds. That would be a huge amount of shooting with any kind of handgun. I'm not saying a person couldn't shoot that many rounds through a cap and ball, but that is a lot of loading and shooting.

I find it bit hard to believe because my father shot out a barrel on a Ruger 10.5" stainless Super Blackhawk after 10,000 rounds. He sent it back to Ruger and they rebarreled it. 25,000 rounds out of a Cap&Ball seems a little far fetched.

 

[Pete G]

FWIW Brass framed revolvers were Confederate and most were 36 cal. Most modernly available brass is closer to a bronze alloy. If you stay with that you will be fine.

 

[Billnpatti]

Since they are shooters and not just wall hangers, I'd opt for steel frames over brass frames. The steel frames are stronger and less apt to stretch and shoot loose over time. Of course, if you plan to use them to portray a Confederate soldier, you would have to use a brass frame revolver. Otherwise, I'd stick with the steel frames. Just my opinion. It's free and possibly over priced at that. :grin:

 

[Artificer]

Since they are shooters and not just wall hangers, I'd opt for steel frames over brass frames. The steel frames are stronger and less apt to stretch and shoot loose over time. Of course, if you plan to use them to portray a Confederate soldier, you would have to use a brass frame revolver. Otherwise, I'd stick with the steel frames. Just my opinion. It's free and possibly over priced at that. :grin:

With sincere respect, the more accurate way to say this is if one wanted to use a Brass/Bronze Frame revolver for reenacting, then do so as a Confederate and use the repro Spiller and Burr or the repro Griswold and Gunnison. However, there were a limited number of these original brass frame revolvers made and the Confederate reenactor would have to do an impression for certain time periods after the guns were made and certain theatre/s of war. More probably in the Army of Tennessee, for example, than the Army of Northern Virginia.

A fair number of Colt Navy Revolvers were available in the South in the beginning of the war. Many Officers of Pre WBTS Southron Militia Units already had Colt Navy revolvers when the WBTS began. More were smuggled in as well. Of course the Army of the Potomac provided Colt M1851’s to Southrons at the First Battle of Manassas and later, as did other Northern Armies. They were also generous enough to provide some M1860’s, after they came out. :wink:

The following list is of Original Confederate manufactured Colt Navy Copies made with Casehardened Iron Frames:

Augusta Machine Works. Manufactured from 1861 to 1864.
Columbus Fire Arms Co. Manufactured from 1862 to 1864.
Dance & Brothers revolver. Manufactured from 1862 to 1865.
Leech and Rigdon Revolver. Manufactured from 1862 to 1865
Rigdon and Ashley. Manufactured from 1864 to 1865.

So it is actually MORE authentic for more Confederate Reenactors to use a Steel Frame Colt Copy, rather than a Brass frame copy.

Gus

 

[Tinker2]

If someone asks me, I recommend a steel frame but”¦..

I have a brass .36 that I’ve had from 64 or 5. I have shot only full loads and lots.

As Gus said

“and not counting replacing the nipples; he should have had to replace the hand spring, fix or replace the hand,
fix or replace the trigger, and replace the trigger spring at the very minimum.”

Also the hammer, mainspring, wedge, trigger screw, hammer screw, bolt stop too.

A lot of the parts repaired or replaced more than once on that gun.

The gun is in need of an overhaul again. I shoot and push this gun hard.
If it was a steel frame I would think it would have needed the same work.

Yes my brass frame’s recoil shield is going to need to be repaired next time.

I should say that I’ve seen brass framed guns marked Cabela’s that were so soft that
loading a ball in the cylinder with the loading lever could pull out the base pin.
I have around a Dozen C&B pistols, half steel half brass frame.

If I buy a new made C&B gun it’s steel



William Alexander

 

[Treestalker]

Lots of Confederate soldiers probably carried steel frame handguns; after all, they were 'only dropped once'! :shocked2: George.

 

[Zonie]

For those interested, below is a listing of the most common Confederate made C&B revolving pistols.

The number produced is an estimate printed in Flayderman's Guide.

Augusta Machine Works = 100
Columbus Firearms = 100
Griswold & Gunnison = 3700
Leech & Rigdon = 500
Spiller & Burr = 1450
Rigdon, Ansley = 1000
Schneider & Glassick = 50
J.H. Dance Brothers = less than 500

That adds up to about 7,400 pistols made during the entire course of the war.

It might be fair to throw in another 600 pistols to cover all of the smaller, lesser known producers but we're still talking about only 8,000 pistols for an entire army.

IMO, most of the Confederates carrying revolvers got them off of the battle fields from dead Northern solders and these would have been steel framed Colts and Remingtons.

 

[nightwolf1974]

I love the looks of the brass framed revolvers. So I'll just 2x of each in both brass and steel. I won't push them hard...if I keep them loaded reasonably, I'll be able to shoot them for years.

thanks guys for the input... :hatsoff:

 

[Billnpatti]

To all of you gentlemen who took exception to my recommendation of a brass framed revolver for doing an impression of a Confederate soldier, I thank you for correcting me. I did, of course, know that several Confederate soldiers carried captured weapons that had steel frames and that some steel framed revolvers were made by the Confederacy but I was of the impression that the vast majority of the Confederates carried brass framed revolvers. Hmmmm :hmm: Just proves that you're never too old to learn something new. :hatsoff:

 

[crockett]

Thanks Zonie- for some reason there are folks that think the Confederate forces universally used brass frame revolvers. Of those 8,000 ish numbers you quoted- I think some had steel frames so the brass frames were even less than that. Most revolvers were the same used by the Federal Forces- Colts, Remingtons, etc.
It has always been my feeling these revolvers were already in the South before the war. Colt had a plant in London- whether any were bought from that plant during the war- I have no idea.
On the 25,000 rounds- I was just relaying what this guy in a local black powder shop told me. To be honest- I thought it was overstated when I heard it.
On a modern cartridge gun, after 2,000 rounds I might see a little wear of the throat area and after 6,000 rounds definite wear so the 25,000 seems awful high- all I could figure is the soft lead and tiny target charges might have made such a claim valid.
The other thing folks forget is that wear occurs all over a revolver. The hand, bolt, etc. can be replaced but if the racket on the cylinder is all beat up- about time to get a new revolver. I've trued up a few rackets to correct jams but you can't put back metal that has worn away.
So ideally, the best engineered revolver ought to have all the parts wearing out at about the same time- I guess.
One other issue is on this frame stretching- it would seem off hand a Colt Style without top strap and in a 44 caliber might be the most apt to stretch. The 36 caliber should be less and a Remington type with top strap even better- I think.

 

[Artificer]

Bill,

You certainly are amoung many folks who thought that Confederates normally carried Brass Frame Revolvers, including me over three decades ago.

In 1981 and after working my way up to Sergeant in my Confederate Marine Unit, I would sometimes "galvanize" or wear a Federal Uniform to be a Confederate Scout/Partisan/Spy at some "Tacticals." A "Tactical" was what we called a Civil War "War Game," and they were done by North VS South Reenactor units. Tacticals were for we reenactors and not the tourists. We did them at some events on Saturday when the Battle Reenactment for the Tourists were on Sunday. However, once or twice a year, we did a weekend Tactical for Reenactors only.

I was in charge of a small group of Confederate Scout/Spies for our unit for tacticals, when I happened to be in a Civil War shop and noticed they had a used Federal Cavalry Shell Jacket rather cheap. The idea occurred to me that if I wore a Federal Cavalry Jacket when doing Spy/Recon Work, I might not be recognized as easily as if I tried to emulate a Federal Infantryman, because the Federals recognized other Infantry Units that they served with. I purchased a Blue Kepi with it, but did not put any brass unit designations on it, again, so as to blend in easier. It felt creepy to wear that uniform, but it really worked. A few times I was able to walk openly between the Federal Unit camps at night or early in the morning, to listen for their plans for the next day or that day. Before that, we had to sneak up on the Federals and stay out of eyesight. I found out the Unit Designations of a couple of Federal Reenactor Calvary Units and planned on telling any Sentry who challenged me that I was in one of those units. I even carried a steel frame M1860 Colt to enhance the deception. I was only challenged one time and my "story" was accepted by the Federal Sentry on that one occasion.

That steel frame M1860 got some hard usage at those Tacticals and never skipped a beat or had a problem.

Then in 1982 some members of my and other units came to me and said they wanted to start a new Confederate Unit; as our old unit had decided wives, girlfriends and children were not welcome in camp so as to be more authentic without them. (I was one who spoke out and voted against it, but the vote went the other way.) They asked me to be their Commanding Officer in a Virginia Infantry Unit. I did not take the offer at first as I tried to change enough minds in our unit, but that ultimately failed, so I agreed. So besides an Officer's Uniform, I had to get a sword and originally was going to use the Colt 1860 revolver. The problem was we decided to do a Pre War local Militia Unit that was mustered into Confederate Service as a Volunteer Infantry Regiment. So that M1860 revolver was not HC for early War reenactments.

Have to admit at that time I was also under the impression that a Southron Officer most likely or probably carried a Brass/Bronze frame revolver, before I did more research. I really did not want to buy a brass frame revolver because from working the NSSA Nationals, I had already found out they were much more prone to problems than steel framed revolvers. While doing research, a rather new book on Confederate Long Arms, Pistols and other arms had recently come out and it was a pictorial study with quantities of the guns actually manufactured by the Confederate Makers - so I bought a copy of that book. That's when I found out that some Iron Framed Colt Copies had been made in the South during the war.

At the next NSSA National Shoot, I spoke with some members of the NSSA Ordnance Committee about whether a steel frame revolver would be HC for my Confederate impression. These guys were absolutely scary how much they knew about the original guns and not only makers, markings and production numbers, but also down to the tiniest mechanical details. So when I asked if an early war Confederate Officer might have had an Iron Frame Colt rather than a Brass Frame, I was informed it would have to be a real Colt for that early of an impression. He explained the Brass framed Confederate Revolvers came out later and in such small numbers, that it was more HC/PC to use an Iron/Steel Frame than a Brass Frame. He brought further documentation by our booth that weekend to prove it. Needless to say I was relieved, because I wanted to buy a steel frame repro. OK!! So I picked out a really nice Navy Arms repro Colt Navy and purchased it that weekend.

Then I "only" had to find a proper sword and that turned out much more difficult because no one was making copies of M1850 Infantry Officer Swords in those days. I already had an original M1850 that my Confederate ancestor had been presented, after my ancestor blew the original owner out of the saddle. However, I was NOT going to use the Family Sword for other than perhaps some special Living Histories. So at first I used an original War of 1812 sword I already owned, until I was able to reassemble a Model 1850 from original parts and sewed the leather scabbard myself.

Gus

 

[desi23]

Sam Colt was very actively selling his guns in the southern states before the war started. According to a couple of Colt history books I have shipments were being made up to shortly before the war actually started. The brass/bronze frame revolvers came along later to supplement supplies for an expanding southern military.

Between pre-war purchases, battlefield captures and smuggling it would seem that more southern soldiers were armed with genuine Colt and Remington products (along with smaller numbers of other northern and foreign brands) than would have had domestic made guns.

I've owned a few brass frame guns, shot a couple of them loose but a couple others held together quite well with around the same number of rounds through them. I suspect the brass used varies in metal purity (and strength) from time to time or different makers. The ones I still have are restricted to light target loads and seem to be holding up fine.

 

[Wes/Tex]

It might be fair to throw in another 600 pistols to cover all of the smaller, lesser known producers but we're still talking about only 8,000 pistols for an entire army.

IMO, most of the Confederates carrying revolvers got them off of the battle fields from dead Northern solders and these would have been steel framed Colts and Remingtons.

The 600 number is probably fairly correct. Teh exact production count on some of the southern makes isn't accurately known. Some producers never finished out their contracts. Tucker, Sherrard and Co. made virtual copies of Got '51 navies adn Dragoons both..how many is a guess. 400 were listed for sale in 1867 but this was probably parts. George Todd of Austin, Texas made round barreled '51 Navy copies before the war but his probable productionis held below 300 total...possibly way below! Other southern copies have been found in teh past with no markings adn their origin is a complete mystery. All in all...I feel 600 is probably a fair estimate.