Breech Inspection

[tx50cal]

Any help with this guys?

 

[54ball]

I suspected it was a patent breach.

Honestly we cannot tell you how to fix it in the scope of this forum. There are entire chapters in muzzleloading building books dedicated to the breech fitting process with precise instructions and illustrations.
We can't in a paragraph or two tell you how to properly fit that breech. If you want to fix it yourself I suggest these books...

Link Recreating the American Long Rifle

Link The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle

We may can give you some tips along the way if you have trouble but we cannot tell ya step by step.

You could try to find someone one who could do it for you.
Off hand there is the gunsmith service at...
Link Track of the Wolf

and...
Link Pecatonica River

 

[jdkerstetter]

Looked at all the pictures....they show nothing obvious. Without the barrel and plug in hand to inspect and take measurements there's just no way to tell which or if both are the problem.

You mentioned a T/C breech. Assuming the barrel is OK, even if the new breech is the right length and width for you to get hammer alignment when installed, it doesn't look like there's enough meat on that barrel to drill and rethread for it.

You could cut the barrel off and rebreach it and move the lug and shorten the rib. Can you do all of this yourself with the tools you have?

Me? I'd not be chasing good money after bad and trying to save this gun....unless it means a lot to your dad. Unless there's sentimental attachment these guns have little value otherwise.

You've been given lots of options here. It's up to you. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[tx50cal]

I think that I will sharped my breeching skills and treat this lime a new barrel and plug. Since the barrel is a little long I will have to shorten it and fit the plug against the inside shoulder while aligning the outter flats. If I mess up. Then I will just get track to breech a new barrel and go from there with a new barrel.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Good plan. Indexing shouldn't be a problem since your planning to shorten the barrel anyway, as you can work both surfaces to achieve your fit. Indexing is a real pain when you are fitting a plug and have to avoid filing the barrel as you only have the plug to work with.

The big hurdle your going to have is drilling the hole for tapping and leaving a square shoulder for the plug to butt up against. You can use an end mill or flatten the tip of a drill bit after you've drilled the hole and use it to cut the shoulder.

You have plenty of threads on that plug so it should be fine. You might want to relieve/rebate the first one as it's unlikely you will get full tap depth, even with a bottoming tap. Can't find a bottoming tap locally? Then just slowly grind off the tip of a standard one.

Another suggestion, since you plan on using the same plug, drill that powder chamber out to a larger size, something closer to bore diameter. It appears awful small and enlarging it will facilitate better ignition and ease of cleaning, I.M.H.O.

Looking at the pictures again it looks to me like you have a lot of fowling in the first three threads of the plug. Glad you're planning to redo it right.

I'm sure the machinest amoung us will have other suggestions/tips on doing this. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Looking at the pictures again, again. Is there a shoulder at all in that breech?

Am I counting something like 13 threads in the barrel? 8 on the plug with length for a couple more?

It looks like the last 5 or 6 threads in the breech were not even being used....short breeching.

They are probably pretty degraded from being effectively being in the powder chamber through repeated ignitions. If this was a newer barrel and there is a shoulder, I would suggest that you just cut enough off of the end of the barrel to screw the plug in full depth. I doubt those last few threads have any integrity left.

I guess I'm just thinking out loud. What is the length of the plug? What is the depth of the hole in the barrel to the shoulder, if there is one?

You do realize that gunsmithing over the net like this is about an exact a science as performing heart surgery with a soup spoon, don't ya? :haha:

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[tx50cal]

JD you are correct. There are several unused threads in the barrel. The plug is about .542 long. To the slight shoulder in the barrel it is .639 deep. I want to get it down and sealed on the shoulder. I dont it to be short plugged.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Not even a 1/10", not enough to use those unused threads, even if they aren't degraded.

What equipment are you doing this on? Enjoy, J.D.

 

[tx50cal]

I am using hand files and I have to find the correct bottom tap. I think it might be metric I tried a 16mm x 1.5 & 2.0 and they are too course. I also triex a 5/8 x 18 and it seems too course. It will be a long journey to complete this job. ARE YOU SAYING NOT TO WORRY ABOUT A SLIGHT GAP AT THE SHOULDER? Thats what I under stood about the unused threads. Thanks for all your help on this.

 

[jdkerstetter]

...ARE YOU SAYING NOT TO WORRY ABOUT A SLIGHT GAP AT THE SHOULDER?...

NO! What I was indicating is that if there were several unused threads you could simply shorten the barrel until the plug bottomed on the shoulder.

As it is the point is mute as there are not enough threads there and they are probably shot anyway.

Are you saying that you intend to do this entirely with hand tools? Drilling the hole too? Enjoy, J.D.

 

[tx50cal]

Ok. Now I understand. I have a friend who is a machinist. I will get him to cut the barrel to close to what I need. Then I will use a file to slowly bring the plug and shoulder together and index it all together.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Cutting isn't the issue really, you can do that with a hack saw if you have to and true it up with files.

The accuracy needs to be in the hole you drill with the tap drill. It must be centered on the bore and not wobble as that can cause an oversized hole. Over-sized holes result in loose threads. In fact many guys will use an undersize drill bit for tapping so they ensure a higher percentage of thread engagement.

Your machinest friend can likely explain it better than me. I would be getting him to do the cutting, drilling and threading were it me. Likely he can do the whole thing and only have to chuck it in the lathe once. You can do the final fit to shoulder yourself.

It's nice to have a machinest friend....and a welding friend....and one at the saw mill....etc, etc, etc. :wink: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[jdkerstetter]

.....if your barrel tennon is in a dovetailed slot see if your friend will mill that for you while your there too. It would save you some more work.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[tx50cal]

About how large should I go on the powder chamber on a 5/8" plug? Whats the easiest way to do this? I want to keep plenth of material around the edge.

 

[M. De Land]

I don't believe that is a true powder chamber but rather the enlarged end of the flash channel.
I would clean it up and leave it alone the way it is . I like the breech face made flat and prefer to clean the flash channel from the nipple side with a pipe cleaner. I dislike undersize powder chambers with a passion an can see no need for them.
You can work the barrel back the three threads needed with a hack saw , cross cut file and spotting fluid. When you get close, I would go to a flat diamond file taking off what is left of the high spots in the spotting fluid until it will wrench up to index.
The threads look to me like they will clean up pretty well with a bottom tap.
The shoulder concerns me in the barrel as it looks angled from the picture.
You may need to square that and the end of the plug a bit to get a match up and seal.
When squaring by hand I use magic marker or Dykim spotting fluid and cut from the four opposing direction a bit at a time checking with a square and the plug shoulder until it is seated.
From what I can see in your pictures I don't think I would have any trouble breeching it up properly with the existing plug and barrel but of course I would use my lathe and mill but could do it by hand as well if I had to. Mike D.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Mike,

A flash channel as long as the one shown, especially one that has to curve or angle, is not conducive to reliable ignition.

One that size that extends through the breech plug face is going to get powder in it when the gun is loaded so it is, in effect, an undersized powder chamber already.

When having an udersized powder chamber out of necessity, as is the case here, the larger you can make it the better, I.M.H.O.

I'm not trying to get in a pi$$in' match, but those forward threads that appear to you as though they would clean up OK? Do you really think it prudent to make that judgement based on photos alone? I'm not. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[M. De Land]

Oh, just trying to be encouraging and saying what I honestly think about what I can see.
Simple difference of opinion is all.
I would simply clean the dismounted barrel in a bucket of water, wipe it out, blow out the flash hole with compressed air from the nipple hole, wipe it clean with a pipe cleaner and then wipe the barrel until clean and lube.
My experience with slightly undersize powder chambers, often with irregular shapes is that they are very hard to keep completely clean in a uniform manor which is why I much prefer even an angular flash channel into a flat breech plug face that I can get clean with pipe cleaners and compressed air.
As to the threads they are not pitted or corroded seriouly that I can see which means they would probably clean up. I suspect the owner was removing the plug each time he cleaned and that is why they probably are in reasonably good shape.
Erosion in not really much of an issue at the bottom of the barrel because hot gas and ejecta from powder grains and fouling is not racing and cutting over the top of them. Mike

 

[M. De Land]

I forgot to add that I have a rifle with just such a breech plug and flash channel only it is fit correctly and the only time I can remember a misfire is when I was messing with Pyrodex in very cold weather or dry balling.
Cleaning it as I outline previously has made it extremely reliable.
Actually I have come to prefer the underhammer configuration with the cap discharge directly into the base and side of the powder column. Mike

 

[jdkerstetter]

....Cleaning it as I outline previously has made it extremely reliable....

....where other percussion systems don't require as much fuss to remain reliable. The closer and more direct the primer flash to the powder the more reliable.

Actually I have come to prefer the underhammer configuration with the cap discharge directly into the base and side of the powder column. Mike

And I prefer flintocks, which do the same...less the cap, of course. :grin:

And both are more reliable than the arangement in question. :wink: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[M. De Land]

My personal experience does not agree that a flint lock is more reliable than the cap lock gun in question when properly cleaned but I'm certainly on board with the direct proximity to the main charge being an ignition advantage with either system. Mike