Brown Bess and ball/loading questions

[pacanis]

You may want to do some research. I think you will find that you will be better off just using pure lead to cast your round balls.

Yep. Been there done that.
From the research I've done, a minute amount of tin will give the casting a better flow and not amount to enough to change hardness.

But I planned to try both ways anyway.

And I wouldn't mind a harder bullet for my 45-60. But I have 20:1 for that to start out with.

 

[pacanis]

Hi Pacanis and WELCOME to the forum!

I had a Pedersoli Brown Bess "Carbine" I shot competitively with .735 cal. round balls and shot. My bore measured .753/.754 and ELEVEN (11) gauge cards and wads were a perfect fit for that bore size. I never had time to develop the best shot load for it, though, so I will leave suggestions for that to others.

OK a little history of the Bess is in order. The ORIGINAL British Ordnance mandated bore size was ".76 cal." or what we would call .760" today, BUT the actual approved period bore sizes ran from .76 to .78 cal. because they did not have precision measuring instruments nor the ability to hold tolerances any tighter back then on such large quantities of arms. Also, the ORIGINAL British Ordnance mandated Ball Size was ".69 cal." or .690" BUT that was inside the paper wrapped cartridge. Unfired Original Balls for the Brown Bess have been excavated all over America, though, and the actual sizes ran from .690" to .720" with .710" size the most common.

Since your bore size will likely be similar to mine at .753/.754 " (though you should verify that with precision Calipers), the .69 cal ball mold you ordered should work very well for making paper wrapped cartridges, should you wish to do so.

OK, I admit I'm somewhat obsessed with getting the most accuracy out of my guns, because I want to know when a shot goes wrong, it is my fault and not the gun. I don't expect a smoothbore to shoot as accurately as a rifle, but I want it to be as accurate as it can be. My accuracy load in my Pedersoli Carbine with the .753//.754 " bore was a .735" ball, a well lubed ticking patch (I take my calipers inside the Fabric Store and bought the "thinner" ticking that was around .014" thick), and 70 grains of Dupont FFFg powder. Your powder charge may/will vary with any other powder for the best accuracy in your Bess.

I HAD to use a BIG short starter with the above tight patched ball load similar to the one linked below. Remember I said I was somewhat obsessed? Grin. Well, I took a .735" lead ball, some 150 grit emory cloth (sandpaper for metal) and put the abrasive side of the cloth next to BOTH brass ends on the short starter. I used the ball to push against the cloth while turning it to reshape the brass ends closer to the actual size of the ball. OK, so why in the Heck did I do that? The sanded/reshaped brass ends did not dig into and leave a ding or ring on the ball when using the short starter over the sprue. I think not having the lead balls dinged/ringed allowed a little better accuracy, though I admit I'd be hard pressed to fully document that. I was taught to do it on my rifle short starter brass ends, so I did it for my Brown Bess short starter.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/118/3/ST-8
I could absolutely count on the fact at 25 yards (Offhand) that my ball would split on the axe head and each piece would shatter the clay pigeons hung on each side. At 100 yards, I could hit a one gallon milk jug 8 out of 10 times from the Offhand, but the gun could have done it at least 9 times out of ten. I wasn't as good of a shot then as I learned to be later.

OK, this is running long and so I don't lose it, will continue in my next post.
Gus

Thanks!
And a most excellent post, Gus. I enjoyed reading it.
In fact, with all the reading and researching I've been doing, I think I came across someone splitting balls and shooting milk jugs in other threads.

I'm kind of obsessed with accuracy myself. I'll give myself some leeway for older eyes and whatnot, but for instance: I just installed a 3/32" brass bead on my 1866 Uberti Yellowboy tonight. The other week while shooting my 1886 I noticed that the brass bead was a LOT easier to see and sure enough, it was 3/32". The one I installed on my Yellowboy when I got it was 1/16".

I'm really hoping this is the last step in getting that gun to shoot sub 1-1/2" group at fifty yards off a bench! This thing has been killing me. I've already gone to larger diameter bullets and neck sizing only the 45 Colt. Yes, 45 Colt. Now I know why guys like 44-40...
But I'll keep playing with it, against everything I've read regarding how accurate they aren't.

But I like a reasonably accurate gun, too

 

[flintlock lover.]

The Bess' caliber was reduced to the "area" of .75 by England's purchasing arms from the East India Company during the years of approximately 1790 to 1820.
The East India Company had been supplying arms for their very own army of oppression for some years by this time. These weapons once in the hands of British troops were designated as the 3rd model short land pattern. They were a somewhat inferior product, cheaply made, compared to the earlier 1st model land pattern and the 2nd model short land pattern, but generally serviceable. Less ornament, less detailed finish. The East India Company had their own armory and manufacturing for these arms in India. The 3rd model saw service as replacement arms in America during the War of 1812. It was the primary British arm in the Napoleonic war and after with many later converted to cap ignition then redistributed throughout the British colonies. Most converted at the East India Company armory.
My history speal for today.
Yes, I could go on boring you for hours to include why the military and Parliament directed that units must have a standard arm in 1720 and how that came about, but I'm just starting here and don't want to be that guy nobody wants to start a conversation with.

 

[Artificer]

Thanks!
And a most excellent post, Gus. I enjoyed reading it.
In fact, with all the reading and researching I've been doing, I think I came across someone splitting balls and shooting milk jugs in other threads.

I'm kind of obsessed with accuracy myself. I'll give myself some leeway for older eyes and whatnot, but for instance: I just installed a 3/32" brass bead on my 1866 Uberti Yellowboy tonight. The other week while shooting my 1886 I noticed that the brass bead was a LOT easier to see and sure enough, it was 3/32". The one I installed on my Yellowboy when I got it was 1/16".

I'm really hoping this is the last step in getting that gun to shoot sub 1-1/2" group at fifty yards off a bench! This thing has been killing me. I've already gone to larger diameter bullets and neck sizing only the 45 Colt. Yes, 45 Colt. Now I know why guys like 44-40...
But I'll keep playing with it, against everything I've read regarding how accurate they aren't.

But I like a reasonably accurate gun, too

Thank you for the kind words.

OK, for wads and cards, you want their diameter to be a bit larger than the bore size so when they compress a little in the bore, it seals the bore well. The following chart shows why 11 ga. wads and cards fit the Pedersoli Bess .753/.754 bore so well. Below the chart, you can find the cards and wads in that 11 ga as well.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/171/1
My load development and competitive shooting with the Bess Carbine was back in the mid to late 1970's. In more recent years, forum members have come up with some newer tricks that might have made my old Bess shoot even better.

Forum Member George's load interested me a lot because he stated he got 4 inch groups at 120 yards from a rest with his type of round ball load in a smoothbore. Even though I had cards and wads for my Bess, I never thought to try them when shooting with round ball. He stated he got the best accuracy when using a card over the powder, then a 1/2 inch wad, then finally his patched ball (no card over the patched ball). He also said he used slightly less thick tightly woven linen around .010" thick as the patch for the ball and the patch was lubricated as well.

Something else many of us didn't know back in the 70's was lubricant made from at least some petroleum product is not a good thing to use in a smoothbore as it can cause excessive build up of fired residue in the bore. Today many guys make up their own Lubricant from a combination of Olive Oil and Beeswax (melted and mixed together in a double boiler or microwave oven to melt the wax) OR tallow as the sole lubricant. You can pre-lubricate the cards and wads and carry them in something like an Altoid Mints Can and you can carry a small tin container of the same for lubricating the patch material.

I'd sure try these things today, if I was developing a load for my Bess Carbine.

Loyalist Dave has also talked about using a paper wrap around the ball to hold it center in the bore as much as possible. Hope he chimes in this thread with how he does that.

Gus

 

[toot]

there is a lot of great help in the posts'

 

[pacanis]

I've used melted lard to lube the 1/2" wads before in my fowler. I let them soak for a while then dry on waxed paper. It works well.

I still might try the 12ga wads I have though. I'll have to see how they fit when my gun gets here.

 

[Some_Mook]

FWIW, if anyone is interested: TOTW is out of stock on the thick 11ga wads. Might try DGW - they had some the last time I ordered them

 

[nwtradegun]

MIC THE BORE BEFORE YOU BUY BALLS THAY VARY MINE HAD TO USE 690 PATCH BALLS ANYTHING ELSE WAS TO BIG

 

[user 43911]

FWIW, if anyone is interested: TOTW is out of stock on the thick 11ga wads. Might try DGW - they had some the last time I ordered them

Try here, right side of page pick gauge.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Fiber-Cushion-Filler-Wad-12/productinfo/FC/11 GA/

 

[user 43911]

So, did your Bess Carbine show up yet ? What is the bore size ?

 

[pacanis]

It measures .75 at the very end of the muzzle.

I've already ran some paper cartridges through it using .690 balls. Gun is fun to shoot.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

First, mic the bore. You kinda need to know the bore diameter, especially with a smoothbore shooting a round ball. Thin walls like the Brown Bess has are not very forgiving. As far as tow, vs. patched round ball and other methods, you are going to have to try different things. I have a 12 gauge T/C New Englander with a very short barrel (12"). I use a light charge of powder, an over powder card, a cushion wad, a patched round ball (sprue up) and/or another cushion wad. I lube everything except the over powder card. I have no front bead.

I can hit a gallon jug reliably at 25 yards, but have not done any serious testing beyond that. The gun is mostly a toy.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[OldSmoky1967]

That is better than I get from mine. No matter how I try I still flinch and pull the shot. I’ve seen some good tips regarding holding the site picture etc. will try those.