Brown Bess- Anyone Out there who can provide some insight?

[Toofer1Special]

Hi Everyone,

I have a Flintlock Musket that I'm trying to discover more info about though what I've found is scarce. It has the name BARKER on the lock plate and LI 59 on the brass butt plate. I'm wondering if this musket could be the work of Matthias Barker??? All I could find was his name but not much more info. There are also English proof marks on the barrel and the word W YORK also written on the top barrel but faint and hard to make out. Any info is always greatly appreciated.

Thank you as always!!

 

[tenngun]

That’s a cheap Japanese repo made for the bicentennial, I give you a hundred for it to save you embarrassment
That’s a beauty ! Don’t know anything about bess builders back in the day, but that’s pretty cool.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
We need pictures of the whole gun and both sides. What is the barrel length and the bore? It is not likely Mathias Barker because I believe it was made late in the 18th century after he was out of business. My first impression is that it is a privately made militia or volunteer musket or carbine. It is not a Brown Bess.

dave

 

[Grenadier1758]

We need to see pictures of the complete musket. We need to see the side plate opposite the lock.

What's the bore size?
What's the barrel length?
Is the ramrod wood or steel?
Is there provision for a bayonet?

I don't see the King's Cypher on the lock plate.

Those are British viewing and proof stamps. Not sure of the associated dates.

 

[Toofer1Special]

Hi,
We need pictures of the whole gun and both sides. What is the barrel length and the bore? It is not likely Mathias Barker because I believe it was made late in the 18th century after he was out of business. My first impression is that it is a privately made militia or volunteer musket or carbine. It is not a Brown Bess.

dave

Hi Dave, I attached a picture to help! The barrel length is approximately 38" and the bore size is .75 cal ball. I was told it was a private contract musket but not sure if Barker ever produced those. Pardon my ignorance (I'm new to the world of muzzleloaders) but what specifically makes a Brown Bess what it is?

Thank you for your help!

-Brian

 

[Toofer1Special]

We need to see pictures of the complete musket. We need to see the side plate opposite the lock.

What's the bore size?
What's the barrel length?
Is the ramrod wood or steel?
Is there provision for a bayonet?

I don't see the King's Cypher on the lock plate.

Those are British viewing and proof stamps. Not sure of the associated dates.

Bore size is .75 cal and the barrel length is approximately 38". Ramrod is steel and I'm not sure what a provision for a ramrod looks like but the end of the barrel is smooth aside from the front site.

Thanks for the help!
-Brian

 

[user 34486]

That's a cheap private purchase fusil.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Brian,
Brown Bess refers only to the British government issued muskets following the distinct patterns beginning with the pattern 1730 and ending with the pattern 1809. Yours is a commercially made musket probably for some volunteer or militia unit and as such it has a number of cost cutting features that would not satisfy government inspection. The trigger guard, nose band, barrel, lack of side plate, and butt plate all differ from any government specs during the time span of the Bess. These militia and volunteer muskets were common during the French Revolution wars and Napoleonic wars because emergency home defense forces were mustered to defend against invasion from France. It could also be something issued to Canadian militia during the early 19th century. The lock showing 2 screws behind the flint cock (indicating a short sear spring) is of a pattern that became popular late in the 1770s and was standard afterwards. The barrel proofs are London and there was a Richard Barker working there at the beginning of the 19th century. I cannot tell if the wood is English walnut but another possibility is it is an American-made militia musket from after the Rev War or early 19th century.

 

[Toofer1Special]

That's a cheap private purchase fusil.

Sounds like it's best to toss it in the dumpster then. Okay, I'll haul it out to the curb when I get back from work.

 

[Toofer1Special]

Hi Brian,
Brown Bess refers only to the British government issued muskets following the distinct patterns beginning with the pattern 1730 and ending with the pattern 1809. Yours is a commercially made musket probably for some volunteer or militia unit and as such it has a number of cost cutting features that would not satisfy government inspection. The trigger guard, nose band, barrel, lack of side plate, and butt plate all differ from any government specs during the time span of the Bess. These militia and volunteer muskets were common during the French Revolution wars and Napoleonic wars because emergency home defense forces were mustered to defend against invasion from France. It could also be something issued to Canadian militia during the early 19th century. The lock showing 2 screws behind the flint cock (indicating a short sear spring) is of a pattern that became popular late in the 1770s and was standard afterwards. The barrel proofs are London and there was a Richard Barker working there at the beginning of the 19th century. I cannot tell if the wood is English walnut but another possibility is it is an American-made militia musket from after the Rev War or early 19th century.

Dave, thanks so much for the valuable info. Glad to know the distinguishing features that make a Brown Bess what it is. I would assume the LI 59 on the butt could be an indication as to the volunteer or militia unit this musket was assigned to??? Are Brown Bess barrels heavier than the commercial made musket barrels?

Thanks again!

 

[user 34486]

Dave, thanks so much for the valuable info. Glad to know the distinguishing features that make a Brown Bess what it is. I would assume the LI 59 on the butt could be an indication as to the volunteer or militia unit this musket was assigned to??? Are Brown Bess barrels heavier than the commercial made musket barrels?

Thanks again!

Military and civilian barrels were about the same in thickness, thin by today's standards. The butt markings are indeed indicitive of British service, but not necessarily as we see the gun now. It's very short compared to the regulation 46-42 inch barrel besses, but officers and senior NCOs might have shorter arms. Alternately it could be a recycled military arm either cut down and reduced, or a militia cobble job, American made from used parts as mentioned above. Hard to tell, but in it's current state it's would most likely denote either private purchase or militia arsenal inventory. Neat piece.

 

[Rudyard]

Dave, thanks so much for the valuable info. Glad to know the distinguishing features that make a Brown Bess what it is. I would assume the LI 59 on the butt could be an indication as to the volunteer or militia unit this musket was assigned to??? Are Brown Bess barrels heavier than the commercial made musket barrels?

Thanks again!

London commercial proofs the gun looks fine to me. Don't even think of dumping it . Which ever Barker it might be its right even if the founder of a firm is long dead The firm still produced arms under that name so you cant rule out Mathias Barker & its not cheap junk or any bi centenial Japonees offering. .Yes might not be a Govt Musket but its still a good musket.by the looks of it .
Rudyard

 

[springfield art]

Hi Everyone,

I have a Flintlock Musket that I'm trying to discover more info about though what I've found is scarce. It has the name BARKER on the lock plate and LI 59 on the brass butt plate. I'm wondering if this musket could be the work of Matthias Barker??? All I could find was his name but not much more info. There are also English proof marks on the barrel and the word W YORK also written on the top barrel but faint and hard to make out. Any info is always greatly appreciated.

Thank you as always!!

There's a group called the Brown Bess Shooters & Collectors group; bet they'd drool over that and give you good info! Looks really nice.

 

[springfield art]

London commercial proofs the gun looks fine to me. Don't even think of dumping it . Which ever Barker it might be its right even if the founder of a firm is long dead The firm still produced arms under that name so you cant rule out Mathias Barker & its not cheap junk or any bi centenial Japonees offering. .Yes might not be a Govt Musket but its still a good musket.by the looks of it .
Rudyard

I think today's "lawyer proof" barrels are much heavier in general.

 

[PathfinderNC]

That's a cheap private purchase fusil.

Don’t you just love it when the experts chime in?

 

[springfield art]

Don’t you just love it when the experts chime in?

Even if it WAS a "cheap private purchase" fusil, it's a fine, historical, collectible rarity today. Anyone would love to own it.

 

[2 shots]

india pattern barrel length but with 4 pipes like a long and short land. odd??

 

[Toofer1Special]

Don’t you just love it when the experts chime in?

Beau had me regretting asking the question in the first place for a little while lol

 

[Toofer1Special]

There's a group called the Brown Bess Shooters & Collectors group; bet they'd drool over that and give you good info! Looks really nice.

Is that a group on this website or are they on a different website?

Thank you!

 

[Toofer1Special]

india pattern barrel length but with 4 pipes like a long and short land. odd??

I'll nickname it Frankenstein