Brown Bess Options?

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I have an old one that’s never been fired it was my
Fathers not sure who made it probably pedersoli as it is very nice has my fathers name
Engraved on
Butt plate and as I am left handed don’t know what to do with it was gonna squirrel hunt but the lock is on. The way am interested in a nice trade

Really? All my father left me was a bunch of bad memories, us with red butts and my mom with a black eye and my mother and siblings on welfare. We ended up on Grandpa's Farm where if we didn't grow it or kill it, we didn't eat. If my father was a real father and had left me something like that, I would cherish it forever. Semper Fi.
Just put a Flash Guard over the pan. You can direct the flash to go where you want it too.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Most are too stupid to realize that $1000 worth of cheap garbage is exactly that. Thus we are having this conversation.

Have you ever owned an India Musket?

 

[tenngun]

They may be an honorable firm, but those India sourced muskets look like literal caricatures of what they are supposed to be. The M1795, M1840 and English 1720-60 trade gun gave me big laughs.

When placed beside an original most Indian guns are closer then Perdisoli
I have a dog lock from Loyalist.
Ethen at I love muzzleloading did a video on the original mine was patterned after
My butt plate is different, shaped like a steel trade gun while the original had a long double shaped top tang. The original had an entry pipe and mine doesn’t and the original had a straight odd shaped side plate and mine is sans side plate
As it arrived the forestock was too thick, but that was a quick fix
11 bang bang channel compared his Indian 63 Charlie to an original and was pretty close, as said much closer then the perdisoli bess is to an original and much closer then their trade gun is to originals.
It takes me a year to save my pennies for a new gun by, parts from Track or a Kibler run in the zone of an Indian.
It would be two years for a perdersoli and five for a custom
For a wrong butt plate and entry pipe and time frame, far from instant gratification for me I can live with the little problems
My SMR was the best parts from Track, but wrong lock style, my TFC is the very best from Centermark, but misses a lot of correct details, my Lancaster smooth rifle again is great parts but sans the carving that was typical of these guns
I’m ok with little infractions

 

[FlinterNick]

When placed beside an original most Indian guns are closer then Perdisoli
I have a dog lock from Loyalist.
Ethen at I love muzzleloading did a video on the original mine was patterned after
My butt plate is different, shaped like a steel trade gun while the original had a long double shaped top tang. The original had an entry pipe and mine doesn’t and the original had a straight odd shaped side plate and mine is sans side plate
As it arrived the forestock was too thick, but that was a quick fix
11 bang bang channel compared his Indian 63 Charlie to an original and was pretty close, as said much closer then the perdisoli bess is to an original and much closer then their trade gun is to originals.
It takes me a year to save my pennies for a new gun by, parts from Track or a Kibler run in the zone of an Indian.
It would be two years for a perdersoli and five for a custom
For a wrong butt plate and entry pipe and time frame, far from instant gratification for me I can live with the little problems
My SMR was the best parts from Track, but wrong lock style, my TFC is the very best from Centermark, but misses a lot of correct details, my Lancaster smooth rifle again is great parts but sans the carving that was typical of these guns
I’m ok with little infractions

Don’t agree with this tengun, respectfully.

I have an original charleville 1766 with me, and i have had Indian 1766’s, they’re nothing alike at all. Everything from the lock, screws, to the barrel bands is a mere parody copy.

Dog locks were very crudely built arms, not a lot of detail in them until you get them down and in front of you, they’re very different.

Indian arms pass the 10 foot test, some pass the 5 foot test but side by side…. Na.

Pedersoli’s brown Bess is not a copy of anything, it’s a mass produced factory gun that was designed to be cost effective to produce, which is why its a 7/8 scale version of a short land. Bob Fritch and Val Fogle teamed up to produce these and at the same time Sandy McNab and Kit Ravensheer with coach and harness co made a long land, they were not designed to be exact copies, close copies… close enough to sell thousands during the bicentennial.

The best pedigree reproduction musket is a 1766 navy arms charleville by miroku, it’s almost identical to an original. See pictures below, navy arms vs. original 1766.

 

[Pipe welder John]

Really? All my father left me was a bunch of bad memories, us with red butts and my mom with a black eye and my mother and siblings on welfare. We ended up on Grandpa's Farm where if we didn't grow it or kill it, we didn't eat. If my father was a real father and had left me something like that, I would cherish it forever. Semper Fi.
Just put a Flash Guard over the pan. You can direct the flash to go where you want it too.
View attachment 280537

Really? All my father left me was a bunch of bad memories, us with red butts and my mom with a black eye and my mother and siblings on welfare. We ended up on Grandpa's Farm where if we didn't grow it or kill it, we didn't eat. If my father was a real father and had left me something like that, I would cherish it forever. Semper Fi.
Just put a Flash Guard over the pan. You can direct the flash to go where you want it too.
View attachment 280537

 

[Pipe welder John]

Can anyone tell me who this is made by or what it’s worth it’s never been fired only the hammer with flint on frozen one time and it only has very minor surface rust could use polishing I was gonna try to use it for squirrels but it’s kind of big and awkward

 

[Pipe welder John]

Can anyone tell me who this is made by or what it’s worth it’s never been fired only the hammer with flint on frozen one time and it only has very minor surface rust could use polishing I was gonna try to use it for squirrels but it’s kind of big and awkward

Would be interested in trades or sell

 

[tenngun]

Don’t agree with this tengun, respectfully.

I have an original charleville 1766 with me, and i have had Indian 1766’s, they’re nothing alike at all. Everything from the lock, screws, to the barrel bands is a mere parody copy.

Dog locks were very crudely built arms, not a lot of detail in them until you get them down and in front of you, they’re very different.

Indian arms pass the 10 foot test, some pass the 5 foot test but side by side…. Na.

Pedersoli’s brown Bess is not a copy of anything, it’s a mass produced factory gun that was designed to be cost effective to produce, which is why its a 7/8 scale version of a short land. Bob Fritch and Val Fogle teamed up to produce these and at the same time Sandy McNab and Kit Ravensheer with coach and harness co made a long land, they were not designed to be exact copies, close copies… close enough to sell thousands during the bicentennial.

The best pedigree reproduction musket is a 1766 navy arms charleville by miroku, it’s almost identical to an original. See pictures below, navy arms vs. original 1766.

Well maybe I don’t have an eye for detail. Butts are a little different, not much, lock is very close, I understand some ‘63s had the band spring some did not, and I understand some had the band spring added in later life, butt plate is very close.
Are these greater then the difference between perdisoli bess 7/8 and real?
Now I’m not a military guy, but I’m seeing two very close examples here
I’ve often thought about Cornwallis March to Yorktown. How many field modifications had to be done by the armorer on the march.
Even though guns had go no go they were not made with interchangeable parts. An army of the Eighteenth century was not as uniform as middle nineteenth.
Across New France the armorer had to keep guns functioning and adapt as needed.
I went to an 1812 event, as a civilian turned out for militia. The commander didn’t know if I should participate. I had an early nineteenth century working man’s coat, but had eighteenth century buttons on it. He dinged me on that. But I pointed out I’m sixty years old, I didn’t throw away old buttons, but just repurposed them. He reluctantly let me in.
Do those very minor details justify two to five times the price?
I dress in wool of sheep that didn’t exist back then, dyed with dyes yet to be invented and dine on salt pork made from breeds not yet bred.

 

[Clark Badgett]

The Indian made charleville’s and 1795’s are very far from the authentic patterns they’re intended to be.

While that’s an issue for you or myself, the novice buyer that has very little knowledge of the correct dimensions and patterns may not be.

Teak stocks alone are enough for me to say, no never ever.

If it were just the novice buyer, this wouldn’t be an issue. We have people here claiming to know the difference, crowing over them, actually encouraging people to buy the worst available.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Have you ever owned an India Musket?

I’ve never met one in person that was of sufficient quality to justify me parting ways with my hard earned money. I learned all too well from my financially irresponsible father.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Comparing the same model from the same builder you can find differences. Using a single original as a standard by which to compare reproductions is not fair. It isn't right because you can put multiple originals together and find differences between them!

 

[FlinterNick]

Well maybe I don’t have an eye for detail. Butts are a little different, not much, lock is very close, I understand some ‘63s had the band spring some did not, and I understand some had the band spring added in later life, butt plate is very close.
Are these greater then the difference between perdisoli bess 7/8 and real?
Now I’m not a military guy, but I’m seeing two very close examples here
I’ve often thought about Cornwallis March to Yorktown. How many field modifications had to be done by the armorer on the march.
Even though guns had go no go they were not made with interchangeable parts. An army of the Eighteenth century was not as uniform as middle nineteenth.
Across New France the armorer had to keep guns functioning and adapt as needed.
I went to an 1812 event, as a civilian turned out for militia. The commander didn’t know if I should participate. I had an early nineteenth century working man’s coat, but had eighteenth century buttons on it. He dinged me on that. But I pointed out I’m sixty years old, I didn’t throw away old buttons, but just repurposed them. He reluctantly let me in.
Do those very minor details justify two to five times the price?
I dress in wool of sheep that didn’t exist back then, dyed with dyes yet to be invented and dine on salt pork made from breeds not yet bred.

Prices are all relevant to supply and demand, Indian guns are purchased a low prices because they’re imported from India and produced under almost slave labor like conditions, that’s the hard truth about buying Indian made guns. Yea they’re more affordable, but at a terrible cost.

I have tons of respect for those guys over there and probably could learn a thing or two, but they’re poorly paid, uninsured and work in hellish conditions. So, prices are all relevant and yes, a high quality charleville with attention to details justifies the price.

A 7/8 scale second model brown bess is about 3lbs too light, everything is significantly smaller, refer to Dave_Persons tutorials, he has pictures o the stocks and butt plates side by side. A

A 1763 charleville didn’t have a rear band spring, all of them were friction fit. A rear band spring wasn’t introduced until the light model 66 was developed and even those were made initially with no rear band spring, later 1766’s were modified and 1768’s were patterned with a rear band spring. . My original 1766 doesn’t have rear band spring, making it a rare one.

There are no Indian made 1763’s that I’m aware of, all of the Indian made repro’s are intended to be a 1768 charleville, which is way too bulky all over, the locks are wrong and the stocks are very wrong.

1763’s had a very high comb, and unique barrel band system and a much more massive lock with a very large barrel in .72 caliber. These are totally different from anything made by India, pedersoli etc.

Even a modified 1763 is going to be vastly different from an Indian made one.

Pederosli’s 1763/66 musket is the closest thing I’ve ever seen and its still way off by many details.

 

[tenngun]

I’ve never met one in person that was of sufficient quality to justify me parting ways with my hard earned money. I learned all too well from my financially irresponsible father.

Yeah I had that opinion about Indian guns, I recall when it was said about Italian guns and Japanese guns, I recall when owning a CVA met you couldn’t play with the big boys.
Changed my mind with a little research
Do India made compare to the best, no, not by a long shot, are they good, solid,accurate, functional guns as close to original as 90% of us shoot, yup.
I had a friend when young who was in to hi fi
His turntable cost more then my record player, speakers cost more then the car I was driving at the time, but music sounded the same to me

 

[tenngun]

Comparing the same model from the same builder you can find differences. Using a single original as a standard by which to compare reproductions is not fair. It isn't right because you can put multiple originals together and find differences between them!

Well I’m put in mind of the Hawken shop. Here are the best Hawken plains gun repos on the market.
They took several originals took tons of measurements off of them and then made average parts.
In other words they produced a ‘parody’ that wouldn’t match any particular Hawken
If we say Hawken, what comes to mind is the iron mounted plains rifle. But they made plenty of small bore brass and silver mounted Ohio style guns
Even some of their plains rifles were brass mounted, were they making parodies of them selves?
Hines made a rifle with a 38” barrel. Was that a parody of Lancaster style guns?

 

[tenngun]

Prices are all relevant to supply and demand, Indian guns are purchased a low prices because they’re imported from India and produced under almost slave labor like conditions, that’s the hard truth about buying Indian made guns. Yea they’re more affordable, but at a terrible cost.

I have tons of respect for those guys over there and probably could learn a thing or two, but they’re poorly paid, uninsured and work in hellish conditions. So, prices are all relevant and yes, a high quality charleville with attention to details justifies the price.

A 7/8 scale second model brown bess is about 3lbs too light, everything is significantly smaller, refer to Dave_Persons tutorials, he has pictures o the stocks and butt plates side by side. A

A 1763 charleville didn’t have a rear band spring, all of them were friction fit. A rear band spring wasn’t introduced until the light model 66 was developed and even those were made initially with no rear band spring, later 1766’s were modified and 1768’s were patterned with a rear band spring. . My original 1766 doesn’t have rear band spring, making it a rare one.

There are no Indian made 1763’s that I’m aware of, all of the Indian made repro’s are intended to be a 1768 charleville, which is way too bulky all over, the locks are wrong and the stocks are very wrong.

1763’s had a very high comb, and unique barrel band system and a much more massive lock with a very large barrel in .72 caliber. These are totally different from anything made by India, pedersoli etc.

Even a modified 1763 is going to be vastly different from an Indian made one.

Pederosli’s 1763/66 musket is the closest thing I’ve ever seen and its still way off by many details.

Far off from many details….
So far off from many details is acceptable to you if made in Italy but not in India????
India has some more Robber Baron working conditions then America or Europe, but I bet your typing your responses on a Chinese slave labor produces cell phone or computer, and you may be drinking something other then fair trade, ie: high priced coffee while doing it. I don’t think Indian working conditions have a bearing on the discussion

 

[FlinterNick]

Far off from many details….
So far off from many details is acceptable to you if made in Italy but not in India????
India has some more Robber Baron working conditions then America or Europe, but I bet your typing your responses on a Chinese slave labor produces cell phone or computer, and you may be drinking something other then fair trade, ie: high priced coffee while doing it. I don’t think Indian working conditions have a bearing on the discussion

Please don’t misquote me, Never said anything about Pedersoli’s being acceptable, what i did say is that they’re not a true authentic copy of a brown bess, if i had to chose between a pedersoli / miroku and an Indian gun i would chose the pedersoli or miroku, however I would never end up spending more than 700 for either.

I dont’ think i have much of a choice when it comes to phones or computers, even my frozen broccoli comes from china.

The working conditions, and supplies they use are very relevant to the prices they’re charged by Loyalist, Veteran or middlesex, it is the very real reason why they’re cheaper.

I know many suppliers of Indian guns, ‘Chad’ can testify to what his wholesale prices are and discuss his profits, if he chimes in.

 

[FlinterNick]

Yeah I had that opinion about Indian guns, I recall when it was said about Italian guns and Japanese guns, I recall when owning a CVA met you couldn’t play with the big boys.
Changed my mind with a little research
Do India made compare to the best, no, not by a long shot, are they good, solid,accurate, functional guns as close to original as 90% of us shoot, yup.
I had a friend when young who was in to hi fi
His turntable cost more then my record player, speakers cost more then the car I was driving at the time, but music sounded the same to me

The MO question was where to get a brown bess, he mentioned getting a rifle shoppe 3rd model kit, or a pedersoli… there’s even someone here offering a trade for a Navy Arms Pedersoli Welsh Fusilers bess.

The Indian made option came up but there are clearly much better choices.

There always the need for folks to chime in here and throw in the Indian made guns as an option, becuase they have purchased them and need to justify their poor investment choices on others.

Fact of the matter, a third model bess rifle shoppe kit with an assembled lock, and a used pedersoli are two dame good choices i would not even bring the Indian made repro’s into this equation.

NM

 

[FlinterNick]

Well I’m put in mind of the Hawken shop. Here are the best Hawken plains gun repos on the market.
They took several originals took tons of measurements off of them and then made average parts.
In other words they produced a ‘parody’ that wouldn’t match any particular Hawken
If we say Hawken, what comes to mind is the iron mounted plains rifle. But they made plenty of small bore brass and silver mounted Ohio style guns
Even some of their plains rifles were brass mounted, were they making parodies of them selves?
Hines made a rifle with a 38” barrel. Was that a parody of Lancaster style guns?

Wer’re talking about a military arm, not a personalized civilian gun or hunting rifle.

A 1766 Charleville next to another 1766 charleville isn’t going to be vastly different, they have to abide by the same pattern they were designated to build. A 1769 second model brown bess built in 1770 will not vary all that much from one built in 1772, are there differences because they’re hand made yes for sure, but the general patterns are all the same. Even two miroku brown Bess’s made 3 years apart are not going to be identical, but they will certainly are of the same pattern.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’d love a Brown Bess as a shooter, so that means most likely a reproduction.

I see Pedersoli is selling there’s for $1700:

https://muzzle-loaders.com/products...5-cal-flintlock-s-260#shopify-product-reviews
Is it worth that price? Any issues with these? Other than that, there’s the Indian made ones and I know that’s a whole different kettle of fish. Curious is any custom builders can make one for me?

If a guy wanted a Brown Bess to shoot what would you do? Thanks!

I would talk to the fella offering the second model, that’s pretty good option. It’s an early pedersoli brown bess, these were made pretty well, some are even in .72 caliber.

 

[Clark Badgett]

The MO question was where to get a brown bess, he mentioned getting a rifle shoppe 3rd model kit, or a pedersoli… there’s even someone here offering a trade for a Navy Arms Pedersoli Welsh Fusilers bess.

The Indian made option came up but there are clearly much better choices.

There always the need for folks to chime in here and throw in the Indian made guns as an option, becuase they have purchased them and need to justify their poor investment choices on others.

Fact of the matter, a third model bess rifle shoppe kit with an assembled lock, and a used pedersoli are two dame good choices i would even bring the Indian made repro’s into this equation.

NM

Nick, you nailed it. The advice should always be to get the highest quality you can afford.