Buck & Ball

[RussB]

In another thread, Musketman seez;
...... "Smooties can shoot ball or shot, and even buck-and-ball... (roundball with three pellets of buck shot, scaled down shot size for smaller bores)"......

Ain't never done this, but I reckon ther's a first time fer ever thang!
Just whut size liddle bucks would you'ns suggest I try in my .66 caliber smoothie?
Got me one o'dem big round 'uns from Jeff Tanner at .650, and she does better every day with that, after all...it's the gun that's breaking in the shooter.
I ain't got nuttin real small rat now, alls whut I got liddle, is a .440 RB mould whats gathering dust, and thet seems awful big.
Whut would you real smart fellers recommend for .66 cal? I did noticed a box of .36 cal somewhere, that might be liddle enough for 4 or 5 (or 3) and a good tight wad over 'em...huh?

Darn Rollinb! (Stumpy too.) That colloquial stuff you "speak", is hard to type...and spell too!! Guess I better leave that to you, and try to improve my own verbiage. Sorry!
Russ

 

[cmetucker]

I would try No. 4 Buckshot (about .25 calibre). Three pellets seem to be the slightest bit too large to fit on top of a ball in a .62 calibre smoothbore.

I tie paper buck & ball cartridges. You want your buck to sit 'neatly' or flat on top of the ball. I would suggest making a small paper tube (based on the round ball you use. Doesn't need to be more than a 1/2" high. Then drop three (or four, depending on the size of your buck shot) into the paper tube and see if they will fall flat into a triangular shape. If they will, then you know that they will do the same when dropped down your bore (and given a little shake). Then you can seat an over shot card to hold the buck in place.

For me, it is quicker loading at the range if I tie the buck & ball paper cartridges at home. I find it theraputic once I get going.

 

I like the no.-4 buck made by Hornady. A patched ball and 4 of these 24cal over the top with a thin overshot card to hold it in. 80grs of ffg. And in the 12 bore 90grs. of ffg one ball and 5 no-4 buck over the top. Or with out the ball and 10 no-4 in 20 bore and in 12bore 18 without ball. A close range 25yds path cleaner!!

 

[tg]

If you are just playing many sizes may work, if hunting deer check local regs. some states require a certain size of buckshot, I must use none smaller than .30 so I put 6 of these atop a .600 ball and it is bad medicine out to 15-20 yds.

 

[Rat]

I've kind of been curious about what kind of pattern you get, and how it patterns in relation to where the ball strikes.

Does it throw off the accuracy of the ball?

I have a .75" bore musket, and a .36 calibre pistol, (.375") and have been tempted to try out the buck-n-ball in that...although I'm not sure I'd actually use it for hunting. Could be a good thing to carry a couple of BNB loads with those balls in the bullet bag when hunting, as I do hunt in Grizz country, and usually carry the .36 Remington Navy. ???

Obviously I need to play around with them in my gun, and see how they behave...but would be interested also in hearing other's experience with them, especially pattern size and accuracy of the ball compared to a single ball load.

Rat

 

[RussB]

If you are just playing many sizes may work, if hunting deer check local regs. some states require a certain size of buckshot, I must use none smaller than .30 so I put 6 of these atop a .600 ball and it is bad medicine out to 15-20 yds.

Good thought on that size thing for hunting tg...that thought never crossed my mind. I have to look, but I'm thinking "00" is the smallest size permited...not sure about this.

If I'm getting the drift of this....my goal should be a "size" that will permit a given number to sit flat, or even on top of the ball?...even or flat as possible on a round ball.

I'm thinking a shot card over the RB, then a OS card over the buck would kinda level the playing field...any merit to that thought. Or, do you think the "bag 'em / tag 'em" is still better?

Got good weather coming in for the next few days, should be a good time for playing with this.
Thanks,
Russ

 

Darn Rollinb! (Stumpy too.) That colloquial stuff you "speak", is hard to type...and spell too!! Guess I better leave that to you, and try to improve my own verbiage. Sorry!
Russ

Yore do'n right fine ther ol'timer, don't give up onner now or you'll never turn it in'ta "fine art" like 'Zonie does!!!! :applause: :: :shocking:

YMHS
rollingb :shocking:

 

[squirejohn]

Russ B - If you want to know what maximun cal. ball to use so that 3 of them will fit 'flat" in the bore multiply the bore size by .465. In your gun .65 x .465 = .302. So .30 cal ball or #1 buck sould "fit the bill". I got the .465 # empirically so it is not precise. I don't know how to figure it out mathematically but I'm sure someone on the Board can.

 

[musketman]

multiply the bore size by .465. In your gun .65 x .465 = .302. So .30 cal ball or #1 buck sould "fit the bill".

It will get you in the ball park for a figure...
Thanks Robin... :redthumb:

Buck & Ball loads can be made in paper cartridges as seen below...

Or loaded loose on top of a patched roundball...

If loaded loose, start the patch roundball as you normally would, run the ball down an inch or so and place the 3 loose
shot pellets on top of the ball so as they lay flat, cover with an overshot card and ram home to the powder...

 

[RussB]

MusketMan Seez;...."If loaded loose, start the patch roundball as you normally would, run the ball down an inch or so and place the 3 loose shot pellets on top of the ball so as they lay flat, cover with an overshot card and ram home to the powder... "

Great, I can do that!
Is there any adjustment to the powder charge? Or do I just go with my standard 82gr? (which is what the measuring "spout" on my horn has been trimmed to)

I have tried my hand with the cartouche thingy, with #5 shot on one end, and powder on the other, but it didn't work well....guess I didn't have the right paper, I ended up deciding to go with just the pre-measured shot and a fiber wab inside the paper cup, and adding the OP and OS card from my bag....works great.

I think 3 of the .30 cal buckshot, over the ball, with a OS card should work pretty good....I will be trying that.
Russ

 

[musketman]

Is there any adjustment to the powder charge? Or do I just go with my standard 82gr? (which is what the measuring "spout" on my horn has been trimmed to)

You can start there, remember the powder will be pushing the extra weight of the shot, so you will feel more recoil...

The load will shoot lower than without the added shot, (extra weight), you may have to up the charge to get the projectiles to print on the target...

Remember, this is a close range load, 50 yards was max for the buck & ball charge during the civil war, but it blasted holes in everything in it's path when used within it's limitations...

 

[roundball]

[quote
The load will shoot lower than without the added shot, (extra weight), you may have to up the charge to get the projectiles to print on the target...
[/quote]

:hmm:
Everything else being equal to his single PRB load at 50yds, it might actually print a little higher...longer barrel time due to lower velocity from the heavier load...muzzle will be slightly higher in it's recoil arc by the time the heavier buck/ball load makes it's exit... :hmm:

 

[musketman]

You may have something there, roundball...

And we know it will "jump" just a little... :winking: :haha:

 

[Stumpkiller]

OK. So I accepted the challange and tried to come up with a mathematical formulae to figure this out.

Three balls that just fit the bore. Each touches the barrel at one spot and two other balls. The three contact points with the barrel form an equilateral triangle with 60

 

[squirejohn]

Good one Stumpkiller :RO: No wonder I couldn't figure it out mathematically, I don't understand what you did :what:, but my 3 pennies, graph paper and a ruler were pretty close .465 vs .45208 as a constant. I'll replace my "guestimate" number with yours :thumbsup:

 

[tg]

I found the ball to hit a bit lowewre than without the shot and the shot was all within a 10"-12" circle at 15 yds if I recall, the shot pattern did vary from shot to shot sometimes more were high and to the left of the ball and sometimes more were low and to the right, but the pattern was always a deer killer under 20 yds, past that there were to many flyers to suit me.........good for crowd control though.

 

[RussB]

Stumpy! You Da Man! :thumbsup:

Didn't get to shoot B&B yesterday due to my "bud" forgetting to bring the .36 cal ball, and single "0" buckshot he had laying around. :cry:

However, Buck & Ball got a very thorough discussion with no conclusive thoughts....as far as I'm concerned.
Don't rightly know of any .28 cal round ball, or even a mould for such, but after looking at what you've said I think such a load would be near ideal for that bore size. It all made sense to me...but what do I know?

My shooting partner seems to be very adamant about "only" shooting one or the other, and feels Buck & Ball is something of a misnomer when it comes to accuracy due to the heavier ball being under the buckshot. He feels that although it is used, and was used with moderate success, a load of buckshot would serve much better. He makes a very good argument for "one or the other", but I can't present it the way he did.
Got to do some more thinking on this and, of course, actually shooting B&B before I say too much.

Russ

 

[Stumpkiller]

Buck and ball, I have read, is ideally suited for shooting at a moose surrounded by geese. I believe the main use was to cause as much mayhem on human-type enemies without requiring precise aiming, or in hunting situations where large game was taken on-the-fly, as in a deer drive. The main ball was to kill, while the smaller balls wounded if the main missed.

Buck and ball guns were popular in New England, where shots are in close and a turkey could appear at any time during a deer hunt. The three small balls greatly increase the chances of beaning a turkey in the head or neck at 20 yards, compared to a lone ball out of a smooth barrel at that range. As a close-in defensive round it would certainly be a stopper.

In a hunting situation there is no advantage to smacking a deer with a .30 size ball in a non-vital spot if the main ball missed.

I've played around with B&B loads, but never spent much time on them. Illegal hereabouts for deer or turkey. I can tell you nine .35 balls jammed into a single-barrel T/C New Englander 12 ga. falls somewhere between a HK MP-5 sub-machine gun and a claymore anti-personnel mine. Talk about a canoe gun! I'm sure not many canoes would float very long after that volley at 30 yards or so. :haha:

You can flaw on the side of having balls slightly too large (none of that, now) as they deform easily in the spots where they touch. Pack the over-shot wad down good and they'll settle themselves in.

 

[tg]

I don't know how much "better" the load will shoot with balls that stack nicely in the diameter of the bore, modern buckshoot loads come in many sizes most do not lay nicely in the confines of the tube, I consider the ball as the main projectile and require it to hit where I am aiming the splatter of the six smaller balls around it will just hopefully stop the animal a bit faster or leave a better blood trail in waining light which is the only time I will use such a load( when watching a trail out of heavy impenetrable cover at last light at very close range)

 

[ben_tree]

Hi really intresting buck and ball stuff, just got an english fowler here in the uk and going to try it out.

Looked in my old maths books and I think to work out an exact fit for buck shot to lie flat on top of a ball or alone in the bore you need to use something called the circle packing theory, when worked out it means dividing the diameter of you barrel(0.729 in my 12bore ardesa fowler) by these values:-

No. of buckshot ... Dividing value

1 ........................ 1.00
2 ........................ 2.00
3 ........................ 2.15470
4 ........................ 2.41421
5 ........................ 2.70130
6 ........................ 3.00
7 ........................ 3.00
8 ........................ 3.30476
9 ........................ 3.61312
10 ....................... 3.82
11 ....................... Not possible
12 ....................... 4.02


So for my 0.729 bore and three buckshot
0.729/2.15470 = 0.33833
So three 0.33 buckshot would be a nice fit.

Hope this helps I will definitly be out this weekend patternig some loads and will let you know how I get on.
Cheers
Ben