Build a Hawken or?

[Doug Lykins]

I never actually set out to buy components for a Hawken rifle. However, through a trade w/ a friend that was too good to pass up, I wound up with:
A 36" .58 tapered barrel, 1&1/16" @ the breech, 7/8" at the muzzle. The barrel has been setting around for many years but has a perfect bore, It is new, just old stock. My friend doesn't remember whether it came from GRRW or H&H? It has flat bottom rifling.
Also a bunch of Hawken stuff, see the pic.

I'm not a complete rookie to gun building, I've built a couple of stocks for modern cartridge rifles and I did put together one ML kit.
But from what I hear the Hawken is a really hard gun to build. I have very little cash invested in the Hawken barrel and parts at this point. In my situation would you;
Buy a fairly inexpensive stock and take a stab at a Hawken? OR
Use the barrel, purchase other components and build something that is easier to build? :hmm:

 

[galamb]

I would suggest before you decide whether or not to build a Hawken, and you do have a good looking set of parts there, that you decide 1) will you use it or 2) do you think it would turn out well enough to sell it if you don't plan on using it.

I'll take a stab here and suggest if you build this rifle it will tip the scales well over 10 pounds and could approach 12 pounds - you probably have 6'ish pounds of barrel there alone AND that is a pretty large bore.

Nothing worse than having a nice rifle that you have absolutely no use for so it sits in a safe or back of the closet.

Hawken's are difficult to build because of some operations that are more "critical" than in other builds. Building less complex rifles "first" gives you practice and insight in how to tackle some of the operations.

I built a half-stock Hawken a few years back. After I started it I set it aside and built two other rifles before I got back to it. I found it tedious and challenging and am in no hurry to ever build another one.

Then, when I got it finished and carried that 10 1/2 pounds of rifle through the dense hardwoods that I hunt, I sold it, because it was not suited to my style of hunting - like draggin' a telephone poll through the woods.....

Your lock isn't even cut for the snail breech. That is a rather advanced operation on any build and not something that you may want to tackle if you don't have experience.

It is difficult enough getting the geometry correct between the breech/tang/lock with the lock already cut. The uncut lock just adds an extra dimension.

Additionally, the hooked breech needs to be fastened to the plug (glue or solder) and then the whole shebang inlet at the same time - again tough to do AND make it look pretty if you haven't inlet a few fixed tangs already.

Now, it's not rocket science. With a lot of reading, study, questions, patience and a bit of luck a first timer could get a nice rifle put together.

But, like I said above - if you don't really have a use for it, it would be quite the undertaking.

You have a few hundred bucks worth of parts there (retail somewhere in the 500+ range from what you have in the pic). If you don't think you would use the rifle you could sell what you have there and get a good down payment on something else you would use.

 

[54ball]

All this depends if you really want a rifle like the Hawken Brothers built.

If you really want to build a Hawken rifle... Study the building books It must be said studying is not enough, you must understand and grasp what they are trying to tell you.

After you have a mental grasp of the instruction, now you have to develop that into physical skill. Here is where a mentor or hands on instructor helps tremendously.

Without a "master", there's going to be a lot of trial and error. Now if you keep at it eventually you'll arrive at where you will be able to accomplish what the instructions say.
Even though you may have developed your own techniques to get there Through trial and error.

You see a "mentor" has already been there and done that. He has learned all those tricks that he can show you; even if he had the best staff of editors in the world, it would be near impossible for him to write it down.

You can still get some of that mentoring online, but keep in mind; due to the limitations of the written word, what the writer writes, may not be exactly what he's trying to say.

The main thing that's difficult about Hawken rifles as Galamb alludes to, It's not only the architecture, the shape and style in the wood and metal; that's the most difficult thing to truly capture in any build. It's that and the addition of the Victorian era hand machine work and fit, that a Hawken is loaded with.

Now if you were a cabinet maker skilled in fine wood work or like, say,...a sewing machine mechanic, or restorer of antique cars, you may already have some skill set. If you are like most you're starting from scratch so that means an investment in knowledge, skill, tools and some experience. It's not easy.

Building a rifle is... well, about building the rifle, not about having the rifle.

If you want to build, study, practice and take the time to....get there.

If you just want a Hawken Rifle, built like the Hawken Brothers.

Contact a reputable builder and have them do it with those parts. You'll come way out ahead, that is if you have no true interest in building.

 

[Vaino]

Your parts are excellent.....but you're missing the end cap which will have to be chosen w/ the rib height in mind.

The bbl will make for a comfortable carrying and balanced Hawken.....built a Stith S.Hawken w/ a .54 cal. 36" tapered bbl {1"-7/8"} and it's a fairly light rifle. Your bbl in .58 cal. should be similar.

For the stock, I'd have the bbl and RR work done along w/ the butt shaped from a good Hawken model.

The under rib will have to be filed to fit the taper of the bbl and I'd rivet it to the bbl.

How does the hooked breech fit together?....usually some tricky filing for a good match.

When inletting the tang, it should be soldered or epoxied to the hooked breech.

The grade of wood is your choice....many Hawkens had plain wood.

Good luck.....Fred

 

[kaintuck]

May need a few keys along with end cap as Fred said.....
You could send your barrel to Dave or someone like him, and have a nice stock profiled out, barrel inletted RR bored.
It would give you a starting point to see if you want to try it....or, just add it to the parts set and sell them all.
I say build!!! :grin:
Life is about living, and experiences..... :thumbsup:
Marc

 

[Doug Lykins]

I would very much like to have a Hawken. "For the stock, I'd have the bbl and RR work done along w/ the butt shaped from a good Hawken model."

Who would you men recommend for the stock?
Filing the under rib to match the taper of the barrel, and making it look nice and clean, sounds difficult. Would a full stock Hawken be a better choice?
If I dive into this thing, I'd take it all nice & slow, pestering everyone here w/ pics & questions. I'm leaning toward giving it a try.

 

[Vaino]

As Marc said....send it to Dave Keck for the bbl, RR and butt profiling.

Filing the under rib to match the bbl taper isn't difficult at all.

Just go slow and think thoroughly about each operation and it''l be fine.

A full stock Hawken is normally a simpler rifle to build, but you already have the hooked breech and under rib and a TG that's for a half stock.....Good luck.....Fred

 

[LaBonte]

If you're interested in making a full-stock Hawken using the parts you have I would take a look at the Kennett Hawken -
While one does not need to go as fancy as the original the info below will give you ideas regarding stock architecture, etc. The guard you have could be easily re-shaped to better match the original, sell/trade it and purchase one similar (the flat to the wrist style is sold by most suppliers) or for that matter left as is.

and here's an article on the rifle as well as it's contemporary full-stock at the Smithsonian which was originally a flinter - both rifles date from the 1850-1855 period.

Kennett Hawken Rifle

The other option is to make a more generic "plains" rifle similar to the Hawken in style - as Charles Hanson noted in his book "The Plains Rifle" copycats of the Hawken Bros rifles was not uncommon in the 1830-1860 period

as for difficulty - I've built twelve rifles in the last 40+ years and all were Hawkens, including the first - was it perfect not by any means but then again many originals were not perfect either. With care it can be done - as for fitting the lock to the breech plug - I learned from the late Ted Fellowes, a well known maker in the 1970 and 80's, to make a thin plastic template for the lock plate onto which the hammer could be easily attached - this allows movement to get it right and if the cutout for the plug is not right the first time and the opening gets too big, use manila folder taped on to get it filled in right. Then transfer that to the lock plate leaving enough extra for the final fitting. Doing it that way I have never messed up so bad that it could not be fixed...

Barrel weight - I would judge you're barrel would be more in the 4.5-5 pound level based on weights of currently made commercial barrels with similar dimensions. FWIW - while the 105 pound weight is touted as being average for Hawken this average includes the late models with the heavier barrels. James Seven noted that all the earlier full-stocks with barrels averaging 38" the weights averaged 9-9.5 lbs. of all mine that I built the heaviest was 10 pounds 2 ounces and that was with a 38" straight 1" Douglas barrel in .54.

 

[galamb]

(responding to the op)

1 1/16" tapered to 7/8" still leaves an "average" AFT above 15/16" weight should be somewhat north of 5 pounds - and closer to 6 with the breech plug.

A full stock would alleviate some of the building challenges (no rib to deal with) and in my opinion is a better looking rifle.

Dave/Knob Mountain has a couple of nice full stock Hawken patterns with both the eastern cheek piece or the beavertail.

The hooked breech would still be correct on a full-stock, and the trigger guard would also be correct.

This is a "later" Sam Hawken full-stock. Still has the eastern cheekpiece (like the look better on a full-stock).

The rifle is plain but still looks awesome.

(been scaling the pics - despite earlier stated "no rush to build another" you never know - so better to be prepared)

 

[Doug Lykins]

I just weighed the barrel and it is 4lbs 4 oz w/ the breech plug installed. Remember it's a 58. I kinda like the looks of the full stock too. As thin as the barrel wall is at the muzzle, if I did go w/ the half stock a guy would really want to be careful attaching the under rib.

 

[Herb]

You have a good set of parts. If you want to build a halfstock, which I recommend, get a hollow underrib from Muzzleloader Builders Supply. It is like the original Hawken ribs. It will fit a barrel from 13/16" to 1 1/8" with no filing, it just rides up higher on the smaller barrel. Rivet it on, much simpler than drilling and tapping for the screws. Fill the hollow front end at the muzzle with solder like all the originals. You need a nose cap, get a 15/16" cast steel nosecap from MBS, part No. 20620. You will need to file the half-octagon out maybe .025 per side to fit the barrel. One inch is maybe too large. Order a couple of hickory ramrods from them with steel tips. I'd go for 7/16", you need two 7/16" steel rod pipes also. They get soldered on. And wedge keys, #29740, slotted steel. Don't use the adjustable sight, too much trouble. A rear sight, maybe 35019, a front sight #16535 copper base silver blade. I suggest you order an inletted stock from Track of the Wolf, 1" plain maple at $102 in their catalog. It has a 15" forend, calculate how wide your barrel is there, I think it will be very close to one inch. I can help you with this if you want to do it. Right now I am building a similar .58 tapered (1 1/8" to 1") 32" barrel, in flintlock. Just fitted the flint plug today. May cut the barrel to 30" for 4 ounces less. You could also cut your barrel to 32", lighter and handier.

 

[Doug Lykins]

Thanks Herb. Lots of good info you gave me, it will save me some research on getting parts.
I was looking at the TOW stock and it is inletted for a L&R lock. It is tempting to get a stock that has the lock inlet already done. But, the lock I have is not L&R, it does however look identical to the L&R. In fact, I'm not sure what make it is, my friend got it from a source in the NW, Oregon maybe?
Also, I'm not understanding how I could avoid filing the under rib when my barrel is tapered?

 

[vulture]

For what it is worth I go along with those that suggest making a full stock rifle. I personally like the looks of a full stock better than half stock, but that is just me, and there is something very appealing to the design and looks of the Hawken full stock.

 

[Doug Lykins]

Correction on the barrel weight. I weighed the barrel initially on an older butcher's meat scale. It is spring loaded and is really designed for heavier weights. The accuracy of the scale is suspect and the 4 lb 4 oz didn't seem right to me so I took the barrel down to the post office and weighed it on their digital scale. The actual weight of the 36", .58 barrel, 1&1/16" @ the breech, 7/8"@ the muzzle, is 4 lbs, 12.4oz. This weight does include the the snail breech plug that is already fitted to the barrel.
I think Herb may have a good suggestion, that is shortening the barrel 3-4". If I put this rifle together I intend to use it in the timber for elk, I'm not sure why a guy would need 36 inches of barrel??

 

[galamb]

I'm still surprised by the weight - lighter than I expected.

Why would I need 36"? - I don't, that's too short!!

that's why I'm building my next hunting rifle with a 42" barrel. With my LOP that will put the finished rifle at 61" long :rotf:

(and I hunt dense hardwoods, usually from a stand)

 

[Davemuzz]

My goodness!!! :shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2: That's not a barrel!!....That's the opening to a water well on my Grandpap's old farm!!!

Now, you have to have some confidence and some mechanical aptitude to build a flinter. This forum is a wonderful resource and these guys force you to really think about what you want, and how you want your end "product" to be.

So, that said....if you feel confident enough to build your Hawken...I say go for it. If you have some angst about it, then build something a little easier.

Still your choice.

Dave

 

[galamb]

In a full-stock I would be inclined to leave the barrel at the 36" it currently is.

On a half-stock, Hawken style, you could go down to 30-32" and it would look fine (Kit Carson's rifle had a 31" barrel and it looks "normal").

 

[Herb]

I agree this barrel would make a good fullstock Hawken. I have built three and have a Green River 1 1/8" x 1"x 36" .58 barrel that I will use to build another in flint, but it will be too heavy at about 9 1/2 pounds for me to shoot in our off-hand matches. I built a fullstock flint Hawken with a straight 1" 36" .58 barrel, hunted elk with it two years, and it weighed about 9 1/2 pounds and was longer than I want for a hunting rifle and I could not shoot it off-hand. I sold it. But if you want a fullstock, I can help with design.

You have the correct parts for a Bridger Hawken, and I have handled the original and built a close copy of it. Mine has a 13 1/4" LOP like Jim's but a 31" 1 1/8" straight .54 barrel, weighing 10 lbs 12, rather than his 33 1/4" x 1 1/8" .53 barrel, which weighs 11 lbs 4 oz. His barrel is not tapered, but who is to care if yours is? My short barrel and short length of pull allow me to shoot my rifle well off-hand, even at that weight. I am now building a .58 flint halfstock with a 1 1/8" x 1" 32" barrel, and I may cut that to 30". This to shoot in our off-hand matches, and I expect to be able to use it well.

See www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com , go to on-line catalog, underlugs, keys and ribs, item #16618, Hollow Underrib, for a picture and description of the part. Your lock will fit the Track inletted stock. I can help with cutting the lockplate for the snail, and so can others here. I have done it a half dozen times.

 

[Doug Lykins]

"You have the correct parts for a Bridger Hawken" I think that's what the original owner of the Barrel & parts had in mind. In researching the parts on the TOW site, the parts I have are the parts recommended for the Bridger. Ex: The trigger I have is a Ron Long design, made by Davis, and it is built specifically for the Bridger. The exception is the barrel, the Bridger uses a straight barrel instead of a tapered one.

 

[galamb]

The "Bridger" Hawken was built by Sam.

Sam developed a more (standardized) style after his brothers death, so with the parts you have you could try and follow the Bridger pattern (and a decent pattern is available from Track of the Wolf for a few bucks) OR you could pretty much build any (later) S. Hawken and your components would look "correct".

And while I have heard that statement about the straight barrel reiterated on a couple of forums, the information I have on the Bridger barrel is as follows:

52 cal, 33 1/8" long, tapered from 1.175" at the breech to 1.125 at the muzzle, 7 groove rifling.

(according to one account - maybe from Doc White??) - Upon inspection the barrel was slugged at .540" and the rifling was noted to be .010" deep.

(I stand to be corrected as usual)