building a muzzleloader

[Walker]

I am totally new to the forum but I have owned and shot a lot of muzzleloading guns. I read all the comments in this section and I appreciate the advice. But I am still not sure if I want to get a totally inletted kit and start from there or take the deep plunge and try to do it right with just a stock blank. I am a wooodworker but by no means expert. I would like to learn.
As a compromise ,would I be advised to order a carved stock with just the barrell groove and ramrod hole cut out or should I go for the semi finished kit with all the main work and the lock and trigger done? I am thinking of ordering from TOTW.
Is the best way to start to order a kit with as much work done as possible, realizing that I will probably screw even that up?
Any advice will be appreciated.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

IMHO I thought the same things. I went with a stock that has the barrel and rod channels and the trigger and lock nortices cut in. I was told that a swamped barrel is best left to those who have wrecked a few stocks aready.

Before you go with TOTW call and talk to Sue at

http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/

Also go to Jim Chamber's website SOmeone here will have it.

Im a metal worker, not a wood guy, so i think I did whats best for me.

I mused over who to go with for months. I went with Sue @ MBS because she has the widest selection, and the finest parts around.
I believe Chamber's kits would be a lot easier to make.
Both of these folks will go out of thier way to help a guy. I am using a special lock by Chambers.

An imformed person has the power of choice

 

[rich pierce]

There are tons of things to learn when building a gun. I'd first decide what you want to learn. I'll give a BACKWARDS list of some of the things you probably want to learn while building a gun.

Finishing: you are a woodworker, so finishing wood should be no problem for you. Finishing the metal would be new. Filing, polishing, browning, bluing, or leaving it bright, would be new, something to learn on a first gun. You'd learn this whether you do a kit or scratch-build.

Inletting- some kits, the parts practically snap into the inlets. Others, there's a smidgeon of wood to remove. I find it harder to remove a little wood from an inlet that is almost the right size than to inlet a lock into untouched wood. The pieces want to wander more in a pre-inlet mortise. Still, it's one thing inletting a buttplate onto a pre-cut mortise, and another entirely, sawing a blank to length and starting there. I'd find using a non-inlet precarve the most difficult of all, because almost nothing is square anymore. It would be very easy to get things slanted a little bit. A blank can be kept square, parts inlet, then shaped.

Shaping: If you start with a kit, you are just shaping the gun very subtly. You'll learn how to use files and rasps and scrapers (which you already know) but not saws, planes, drawknives, spokeshaves, gouges, etc, to really shape a stock.

Design: If a kit, you have nothing to do with design. Somebody else has made all the parts choices and has set the architecture of the gun for you. You'll not learn how to position a lock in relation to the barrel, triggers in relation to the lock, buttplate in relation to the triggers, and how to lay out the buttstock profile in accordance with your preferences, while keeping the pull, drop, castoff, where you want it. There are many more things you'll not learn even with a pre-carved stock, or with a blank with the barrel inlet and ramrod hole done.

Making parts: Someday you may want to learn to make parts. I built a couple of half-stock kits, then felt ready to scratch-build. My first longrifle from a blank, I made the sights, underlugs, nosecap, sideplate, toeplate, trigger, trigger plate, patchbox, and patchbox release mechanism.

So I'd advise you decide what chalenges you want to try right now, then going at it step-wise. Maybe make your first gun a kit, then take on something more ambitious.

I also recommend a simple gun for the first build. A musket or northwest gun, fusil ordinaire, or an unadorned longrifle is a good place to start.

 

[rich pierce]

I forgot metal work- breeching, dovetails for sights, etc. All that is worth considering as something to learn, now or later.

 

[merdean]

:agree:That pretty well sums it up. Do it the way you want. I built a half dozen half stock kits before I did my first from scratch. My first looks like a club. I made a lot of mistakes. :haha: It looks like manure but it shoots straight. But I learned and the next one was better. :hmm: The 3rd one I will acutally show to people. :: Now I am getting ready to build my first full stock from scratch. :applause: And I am getting nervous all over again. :redface: That six foot maple tree stump sure looks big! I am going to learn some new things with this one. :: And relearn other things all over again. Got to get a new bandsaw to start with. More toys.............Good luck to both of us. :relax:

 

[Walker]

Many thanks to the people who responded to my question about how to start. You all provided some excellent advice and I will ponder it.As I expected , there is no pat answer but I gather that I have to take stock (no pun intended) of my strengths and weaknesses as a wood and metal worker and proceed accordngly.
This forum is obviously an excellent ( and expeditious) way to get advice and answers to questions!!
Thanks again .I will no doubt bug all of you many times as I progress.

 

[Birddog6]

I would not advise Anyone that has not built several rifles to start from a blank that was not pre-inlet. There is so much there to learn on how to do.... and no use going into all the details of all of that.

Buy a precarved stock & all the parts & build it. Then access what you have done & if you see errors & places you can imporve your work, do another one. Do this until you you can see none of this is a challenge & THEN you are ready to do a rifle from a blank.

Lets built a Safe Drivable auto & know what we are doing before we build a rail dragster that is a 350MPH rocket........

:m2c:

 

[rich pierce]

Good advice from a Birddog that can hunt. I also recommend reading extensively and having a plan for each step clear in your head before you start. And doing a lot of practicing! If I haven't inlet a lock in a year, I'll just take a piece of plain maple and inlet a lock into it. The second one is smooth as can be when I do this. By then I know which chisels needed sharpening, I've remembered how to read the grain, how much draft I need on the parts, and the order of things. I do the same with carving. I practice carve every design on scrap at least twice before "setting to" on the stock. I do the same with engraving. Another key thing to remember is that some days things will not go right no matter how you try. I have learned to walk away and approach things on another day.

 

People are mentioning wood, and metal working skills. I think we should define a little bit more what type are needed. In metalworking skills, a machine shop with mill and lathe are nice, but not necessary. In building a kit, almost all metal work involves only Filing, drilling, some taping, and finish sanding and polishing. Maybe some bending of metal parts. That's why all the conversations about anealing different metal types comes in. Metal gets brittle when worked, so maybe we should add heating to the metalworking. None of this is that complicated, but it takes some patience, study, thought, asking questions when you get stumped. Woodworking skills are not timber framing, and rough cabinetry, but instead consist of chiseling, planing, using gouges, carving, scraping, inletting, filing, and sanding. You will also do some drilling on both metal, and wood. Actually building a gun, allows you to revisit High School, and lets you relearn the things you shoulda lernt the first time around, like geometry, math, measurements, chemistry, a whole lot of American History, and even spelling, and Grammer, when conversing on this website. I don't mean to simplify the processes, but they are all easy enough to learn, if you put a little effort into it. Not everyone on this site is a professional builder, in fact I would venture a guess that better than 98% ane Amatures. That word comes from the French and means for the Love of it. Remember there are hundres, if not thousands of people on this site to help and amuse you. Well that's :m2c: :yakyak: Bill

 

[dlemaster]

old snake
You have received some very sound advice, and many things to ponder.
I would like to add that you are in a much better position to build a rifle today than it was 35 years ago when I built my first rifle. Today you can decide how much work you want to get involved with based on a sound assessment of your skills.
As others have said starting from a stock blank would probably not be best for your first rifle unless you have a way to work with the supervision of a skilled gun maker. That would shorten the learning curve.
A kit from someone like Jim Chambers is a good way to start, in my opinion. His architecture is good, and fits the majority of people, and the proportions will leave you with a rifle that looks like a long rifle.
I if you find you enjoyed the work then after reading as much as you can about gun building you can build another rifle and take on more of the work yourself and you will be building up your skill level until you get where you want to be.
Today there are a lot more people building rifles and most are more than willing to help or share information with a beginner, so don't be afraid to ask questions.

Regards, Dave

 

[steved]

Hello old snake,

For what it's worth, I am building my first rifle from a stock blank. Unlike you I have no woodworking experience other than Wood Shop in junior high. I invested in Dixon's book and the Hershel House video, then picked up Alexander's book when it came out. My project is still unfinished (I'm too embarassed to say how long I've been working on it), but the experience so far has been great. If you have the desire and most importantly the patience you can do it. Some nights I just stare at it, thinking and visualizing what's next, and consulting the books. Many things like lock inletting, entry pipe and tang inlet, butt plate, etc I've done first on scrap, just to get the feel before putting the chisel to the expensive blank. I've certainly made some mistakes, but the rifle is really starting to take shape. I must admit that my next project will be from a kit, though, becuase I just don't have the time to do this whole experience again. But I can't wait to apply my newly learned skills to something that already has a big part done already.

 

[Walker]

Thanks again to all who wrote - and everyone obviously took considerable time and thought to do so - about building a first rifle. The majority of opinion seems to be that I would be well advised to start first from a kit and that is the way I will go. Thanks to all those who suggested suppliers.
I did buy all the books in the last six months -Buchele, Alexander, Dixon, McCrory, Johnson, etc and every article I could find in related magazines and I have poured over these for hours. I think I have an idea how to do some of it (he said naievely) but I suspect I will only learn about other things if I get at it and do it . You know, before you read these books you have the impression of some old guy in a workshop with a few chisles and a few files working pretty well by guess and by God. When you read about the technical detail , the complex design aspects and the different schools ,you realize the wealth of experience, technical thought and artistic creativity that went into these guns- as they say (whoever they are) it is one of the truly American art forms.*
Thanks again to everyone . I will keep you posted on my progress. Hope I will be able to similarly help someone else down the road.

* The art experts say say the other obvious one is the duck decoy.