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Can a Muzzleloading Rifle Be Built Complete In A Week?

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That would be Wallace Gussler...not the inventor of Dirk Pitt:rolleyes:
It's very easy to get your Gusslers mixed up. They were both outstanding in their professions. Thanks
ps. Dirk Pitt was one macho dude. Could shoot 5 shots outta a flinter in 60 seconds.
 
Just do the math and one can see that building a rifle including forging, drilling, reaming, filing, and rifling the barrel, forging, filing, fitting, hardening, tempering, and tuning a flintlock, casting, filing and finishing buttplate and guard, forging, filing, fitting trigger and plate, making nosecap and sideplate - before beginning to stock or finish the gun. I think it would be fun for those who say it could be done the way it was described, add up the time. Include firing up the forge, setting up tasks associated with drilling and reaming and rifling the barrel and so on.
What’s the fastest you’ve seen 3 men forge a barrel, straighten it, and get it to octagon shape?

what’s the fastest you’ve seen a barrel drilled and reamed?

It takes a good day alone just to rifle a barrel. Anyone here has done it faster using original methods?

how fast can one forge and thread a breechplug and drill and tap a barrel for it using period tools?

how long just to make a tumbler?

let’s see the math!

IIRC in the passage from the book, the fellow states a barrel could be rifled in 3-4 hours.
 
IIRC in the passage from the book, the fellow states a barrel could be rifled in 3-4 hours.
@rich pierce is speaking from experience on the time it take to rifle a barrel to full groove depth for purposes on target accuracy.

Three to four hours for a team with all the tools at hand and molten lead to pour laps with the barrel in the rifling machine to get enough of a groove to get some spin would be possible. There would be plenty of tooling marks left in the three hour barrel.
 
A builder I'm familiar with can have the stock cut, scraped, barrel & rod channels drilled and lock inletted in one day. Another well know and respected builder of my acquaintance told me he could do that in a day. But the stock has to be finished: stained, sealed, etc; and that can take several days to do. So the answer must be, yes and no.
 
Reason I ask, is that I have recently been reading The Kentucky Rifle, written by John G.W. Dillon and published in 1924 by the NRA, and on page 29 there is an account by a Milton Warren an apprentice to gunsmith John Whitesides of Abingdon, VA, in which he states they turned out a good, well finished, but plain rifle in a week.

Which got me to thinking about how long current custom gunmakers take to complete a gun, and how long most of us take to finish putting together a kit, especially considering the account by Mr. Warren states building the rifles included fabricating the barrel and the lock and other fittings from bar iron, and brass or German silver sheet and forming the stock from slabs of wood seasoning in a corner of the shop. Makes modern gunmakers sound like pikers.

Anyone else familiar with this book? It seems to have a lot of interesting information on the origins and use of the "Kentucky" rifle as well as plates showing a number of American Long Rifles and their predecessors. I am wondering how accurate some of the ideas and speculation are that are included in this volume?

TNGhost,

I'm glad to see you are reading some of the published information on Kentucky rifles rather than just getting all your information from the internet. That said, you are wise to question some of the things that were written mid-20th century like Dillon's The Kentucky Rifle. When these early writers were writing about the evolution of the Kentucky rifle and where it originated they were relying more on speculation and very little on solid research and facts. Dillon in particular was fond of repeating stories told him by old timers and information from decedents that amounted to little more than family lore.

The narrative by Milton Warren that Dillion quotes is a good example. It's not clear what all the steps were that Warren was including when he states "It took about a week to make a good, plain rifle, of which time two days would be spent on the stock." He starts out stating that Whitesides owned a sawmill implying that he cut his own stock wood. He also describes where the iron ore deposits are and the smelters that smelted the ore and the forges that worked the pig-iron into wrought iron.

Knowing that the stock wood had to be dried for long periods after it was cut and that the smelting and working the wrought iron cannot possibly be part of the week it took to make a rifle makes one wonder how much of the other processes he describes is and isn't included in his "week to make a good, plain rifle."

The only other time estimate Warren gives that I noticed in his narrative is where he said the rifling "could be done in about two hours." I suppose if two men were taking turns pulling and pushing the rifling guide, they might could rifle a barrel in that time.

Bob McBride mentioned Bob Lienemann's three-day rifle challenge. Lienemann wrote it up in an article titled "The Three Day Longrifle" that was published in the Volume 9, No. 2 - Summer 2017 issue of American Tradition, The Journal of the Contemporary Longrifle Association.

Lienemann first presented the challenge to his friend, Jack Brooks, and later commissioned several other gunmakers to attempt the challenge.

Bob and Jack kept notes and took some photographs of the process. Jack worked 10-hr days with lunch and breaks. He started with a plank of wood, a finished barrel and a finished lock, and rough castings for butt plate and trigger guard. He hand made the other parts.

At the end of the first day, he had the stock blank cut to his chosen pattern, breech plug installed in the barrel, barrel inlet, barrel lugs installed, barrel pinned, ramrod groove cut with gouge and rasp, ramrod hole drilled, lock inlet, lock and stock drilled for lock bolts and tapped, tang bolt drilled, trigger plate made, drilled and inlet, and finally the tang bolt installed.

The second day involved making the trigger and installing it. The butt plate was cleaned up and inlet. Same for the trigger guard. A sideplate was cutout from brass sheet, shaped and inlet. Ramrod thimbles were made and inlet. Sling swivels were also made and installed. With all the metal parts on the gun, the stock shaping began in earnest. The stock was shaped to final form from butt to just past the entry pipe.

Day three began with final shaping of the forend, making a two-piece nose cap and installing, and filing up a front sight of brass and rear sight of iron and installing on the barrel. The barrel was then engraved with the makers name. After final sanding of the stock, it was stained with nitric acid and blushed with heat. Linseed oil was applied.

Bob said:
A bit of time was spent under a shade tree, boning the linseed oil into the stock and discussing the project. The brass mounts were also burnished, and the barrel was left bright.

The longrifle has the components, lines and detail of a fine longrifle, and is complete -- like the old longrifle at Dixons's from a few years before, though this one has both stain and finish.

If all the metal parts had been made by another worker and ready to install by the stocker, it might be possible to stock the rifle in two days as Warren said.

Just as a comparison to another shop from about the same time that Warren is describing Whitesides gunshop (Warren mentions the use of back action locks, indicating mid-1800 or later), Sam Hawken's shop participated in a business census in 1850. It gives some details on Sam's business at the time. He had four workers working for him. They produced 100 rifles and 20 shotguns in the preceding 12 months. We don't know what the shotguns look like as none are known with Hawken markings. It's possible they were NW trade guns as these were often referred to as "shotguns" at that time or they could have included simple single barrel fowling pieces.

Taking all 120 guns as the year's production and dividing by 52 weeks/year, we get an average of 2.3 guns made per week. Looking at this figure per man-week and including Sam with his four workmen, 2.3 guns divided by 5 men yields 0.46 guns/man-week. If Whitesides had half as many people working on his guns as Hawken, it would yield about 1 gun per man-week, but that means he had to be twice as efficient.

As another data point for a large scale operation of the day, data is available from a business census in 1860 on Henry Leman's operations in Lancaster, PA. At that time, Leman had 62 workmen and produced 5,000 guns in the fiscal year. The math gives us an average of 96.2 guns/week and about 1.55 guns/man-week.

Leman's factory was over three times more efficient than the Hawken shop. Leman made his own barrels and locks, but he had a steam engine to power machines. Hawken sometimes made their own barrels and locks, but are known to have used commercial barrel blanks (Hawken did the boring and rifling of the barrels) and commercial locks on most of the surviving rifles.

For Whitesides's shop to make a rifle (including making the barrel and lock) in a week, his operation would have had to have been almost as efficient as Leman's. That would suggest a bigger operation than a master gunsmith and a few workmen like the Hawken shop. He would need a lot of machinery (he had water power) and many workmen to get the economy of scale. It would be doable, but would require a bigger operation than Warren's narrative implies.

If the lock and barrel were already made, there is no question that a small gun shop could make a rifle in a week. Jack Brooks and other professional contemporary gunmakers stocked unadorned rifles and guns in as little as three days for Bob Lienemann's Three-Day Challenge. Sam Hawken's 5-man operation averaged 2.3 guns per week in 1850.

If Warren's narrative included the making of the barrel and lock in his "week", then he wasn't describing a small gun shop but a factory approaching the scale of Leman's factory in Lancaster. Or he was exaggerating!
 
TNGhost,

I'm glad to see you are reading some of the published information on Kentucky rifles rather than just getting all your information from the internet. That said, you are wise to question some of the things that were written mid-20th century like Dillon's The Kentucky Rifle. When these early writers were writing about the evolution of the Kentucky rifle and where it originated they were relying more on speculation and very little on solid research and facts. Dillon in particular was fond of repeating stories told him by old timers and information from decedents that amounted to little more than family lore.

The narrative by Milton Warren that Dillion quotes is a good example. It's not clear what all the steps were that Warren was including when he states "It took about a week to make a good, plain rifle, of which time two days would be spent on the stock." He starts out stating that Whitesides owned a sawmill implying that he cut his own stock wood. He also describes where the iron ore deposits are and the smelters that smelted the ore and the forges that worked the pig-iron into wrought iron.

Knowing that the stock wood had to be dried for long periods after it was cut and that the smelting and working the wrought iron cannot possibly be part of the week it took to make a rifle makes one wonder how much of the other processes he describes is and isn't included in his "week to make a good, plain rifle."

The only other time estimate Warren gives that I noticed in his narrative is where he said the rifling "could be done in about two hours." I suppose if two men were taking turns pulling and pushing the rifling guide, they might could rifle a barrel in that time.

Bob McBride mentioned Bob Lienemann's three-day rifle challenge. Lienemann wrote it up in an article titled "The Three Day Longrifle" that was published in the Volume 9, No. 2 - Summer 2017 issue of American Tradition, The Journal of the Contemporary Longrifle Association.

Lienemann first presented the challenge to his friend, Jack Brooks, and later commissioned several other gunmakers to attempt the challenge.

Bob and Jack kept notes and took some photographs of the process. Jack worked 10-hr days with lunch and breaks. He started with a plank of wood, a finished barrel and a finished lock, and rough castings for butt plate and trigger guard. He hand made the other parts.

At the end of the first day, he had the stock blank cut to his chosen pattern, breech plug installed in the barrel, barrel inlet, barrel lugs installed, barrel pinned, ramrod groove cut with gouge and rasp, ramrod hole drilled, lock inlet, lock and stock drilled for lock bolts and tapped, tang bolt drilled, trigger plate made, drilled and inlet, and finally the tang bolt installed.

The second day involved making the trigger and installing it. The butt plate was cleaned up and inlet. Same for the trigger guard. A sideplate was cutout from brass sheet, shaped and inlet. Ramrod thimbles were made and inlet. Sling swivels were also made and installed. With all the metal parts on the gun, the stock shaping began in earnest. The stock was shaped to final form from butt to just past the entry pipe.

Day three began with final shaping of the forend, making a two-piece nose cap and installing, and filing up a front sight of brass and rear sight of iron and installing on the barrel. The barrel was then engraved with the makers name. After final sanding of the stock, it was stained with nitric acid and blushed with heat. Linseed oil was applied.



If all the metal parts had been made by another worker and ready to install by the stocker, it might be possible to stock the rifle in two days as Warren said.

Just as a comparison to another shop from about the same time that Warren is describing Whitesides gunshop (Warren mentions the use of back action locks, indicating mid-1800 or later), Sam Hawken's shop participated in a business census in 1850. It gives some details on Sam's business at the time. He had four workers working for him. They produced 100 rifles and 20 shotguns in the preceding 12 months. We don't know what the shotguns look like as none are known with Hawken markings. It's possible they were NW trade guns as these were often referred to as "shotguns" at that time or they could have included simple single barrel fowling pieces.

Taking all 120 guns as the year's production and dividing by 52 weeks/year, we get an average of 2.3 guns made per week. Looking at this figure per man-week and including Sam with his four workmen, 2.3 guns divided by 5 men yields 0.46 guns/man-week. If Whitesides had half as many people working on his guns as Hawken, it would yield about 1 gun per man-week, but that means he had to be twice as efficient.

As another data point for a large scale operation of the day, data is available from a business census in 1860 on Henry Leman's operations in Lancaster, PA. At that time, Leman had 62 workmen and produced 5,000 guns in the fiscal year. The math gives us an average of 96.2 guns/week and about 1.55 guns/man-week.

Leman's factory was over three times more efficient than the Hawken shop. Leman made his own barrels and locks, but he had a steam engine to power machines. Hawken sometimes made their own barrels and locks, but are known to have used commercial barrel blanks (Hawken did the boring and rifling of the barrels) and commercial locks on most of the surviving rifles.

For Whitesides's shop to make a rifle (including making the barrel and lock) in a week, his operation would have had to have been almost as efficient as Leman's. That would suggest a bigger operation than a master gunsmith and a few workmen like the Hawken shop. He would need a lot of machinery (he had water power) and many workmen to get the economy of scale. It would be doable, but would require a bigger operation than Warren's narrative implies.

If the lock and barrel were already made, there is no question that a small gun shop could make a rifle in a week. Jack Brooks and other professional contemporary gunmakers stocked unadorned rifles and guns in as little as three days for Bob Lienemann's Three-Day Challenge. Sam Hawken's 5-man operation averaged 2.3 guns per week in 1850.

If Warren's narrative included the making of the barrel and lock in his "week", then he wasn't describing a small gun shop but a factory approaching the scale of Leman's factory in Lancaster. Or he was exaggerating!

Thanks. Your comments on Dillon were kind of what I was looking for, as in other parts of the book you can see where he likely plays a little fast and loose in offering conclusions based on the facts he presents (as in his opinion on where and how the American Longrifle originated). Still a good read with interesting information.

I find a lot of these older publications to be more entertaining to read and more given to the flavor of muzzleloading than more recent works. In some ways these writers of the past offer a unique look, as they are 100 or more years closer to the events as they happened, but as you allude to, sometimes they are more given to the oral history than archival research.

Dillon did preface the remarks of Warren he related, by stating that while information on the early "Kentucky" rifle smiths of the flintlock era was not well documented, there were those available from the early percussion era who made rifles much the same way and some info could be gleaned from the few of them still around.

To be fair to Mr. Warren, he did describe the shop as pretty much a small factory and describes the process of obtaining the wood for stocks and that it was stored for four years for seasoning in a corner of the shop, So I got the impression that there was the work of several men involved in turning out that "plain" rifle in a week. In later section, Dillon provides another narrative which he attributes to fellow period writer Walter Cline's research, which stated that two men could weld up a rifle barrel from bar stock in a half day and have it ready for boring, straightening and then rifling.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that today one should or could build a rifle in a week,(the remark about today's builders as pikers being mostly tongue-in-cheek as it were) but that it was done in the period of their use, as a matter of better understanding the period, differentiating between those that were art and those that were tools, as in those days they were very much more tools than they are today.

I do find many of the older publications full of interesting and useful information, and in some ways it is enlightening to see how much, we have "forgotten". It is hard sometimes though, to ascertain the veracity of some of the facts and opinions presented in them, so your info on Dillon is much appreciated. What are your thoughts on his assertions on the origins of the American Kentucky Rifle?
 
5 shots outa flint locks in less than 60 seconds? Easy.

1609028573914.png
1609028573914.png


It does take 5 people though.
 
I could at the firing of the British line at the 250th Reenactment of the Siege of Fort Niagara. Except I can't find the photo.


Now, if you have to have the requirement that it is one person doing the firing, that can be done. The sharpshooter of the unit does the shooting and the others pass their musket to him to fire. One person but 5 muskets.
 
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