Can O’ Worms

[ElkStalker]

What rifle would you buy specifically for elk hunting, that will also be used for deer hunting. I am trying to solve a bit of an issue here. I have 3 50cal percussion rifles and a 45cal. I built my Renegade specifically to shoot heavy connicals for elk, but so far I have not been able to wring out much accuracy with connicals. It shoots lights out with PRB’s. It actually outshoots my Lyman GPR, (I guess I still have load work to do on the GPR. Lol). I haven’t given up on the renegade but in the event that I am not successful, I am trying to come up with a plan. That plan may entail a fast twist barrel. 50cal connicals are more prevalent. But is a 54 cal conical more devastating on elk than a 50cal 380-400gr connical? (My lack of experience is showing). I have not harvested an elk with a muzzleloader yet. There are a lot of options that would be appropriate for elk -54cal roundball/conical, .58rb(harder to find), fast twist 50. For some reason, I don’t quite trust the 50rb beyond 50yds for elk, but somehow a 54rb is supposed to be the magic ticket for most hunters out to 100yds. The internet is full of opinions that will leave you more confused after reading them, than before. I have a few options. Buy a beat up barrel for the renegade and have Bobby Hoyt rebore it how I want- May be the cheapest option. I also found a real nice Pedersoli Early American Jaeger that has a fast twist. Just curious what your top choices would be. I will not sell the Renegade because I built it, but I’d consider selling if the TC Hawken 45 and 50 and my GPR to find what I need. Or I could try to track down a Hunter barrel for the Lyman.
To add more fuss to my decision, I don’t currently have a muzzleloader for small game. I initially was going to buy a 32cal for rabbits, squirrel, and grouse. Now I think a 10 gauge double makes more sense because it will handle the above and also be legal for duck, goose and Turkey, so it could be a do-all in the small game and fowl area.
I just think it makes sense to move some along to cover all my bases and not have so many deer rifles.
So I suppose I am asking, what would be your preferred caliber to ensure quick harvest of elk, capable for deer and bear, hopefully one day a moose tag, caliber and rifle that is known for accuracy, etc. More grease to the fire, I’ve been wondering if I should ad a flintlock time the stable so I can still hunt for food should we see another cap shortage of epic proportions.
And now you see, I opened a BIG can of worms.

 

[2 shots]

did you try an over powder wad in the rene? might help.

 

[deerstalkert]

answers from bottom to top.
Yes you should get a flinter. you may end up neglecting your cap locks though.
will skip the 10gauge because i have little experience with one. my 12's and 20's do all i need. plus i love shooting PRB from them.
Elk are tough critter's but not invincible. i prefer a 54, but have used a 50 with good placement. i have seen pass through of .50 prb on elk.
have not seen pass through with the .54. don't know what that shows but there it is.
if you can stick a 400g conical .50 across the top of an elks heart, his oil pressure is going to drop to zero in a hurry.

 

[ElkStalker]

did you try an over powder wad in the rene? might help.

Unfortunately, not yet. That is the next order of business. I tried a leather wad, but my largest punch yields a .502” wad. It was a trial and error and found more error with it than success. I didn’t have high hopes. I did drive over to the city today and stopped by 4 sporting goods shops that have muzzleloading supplies, including Cabela’s. Nobody had any wads. Supplies were actually really sad. I did find the Hornady Great Plains bullets I needed to restock. I will have to order some wads, but will also call over to October Country and see if they have any ( they were closed today). I was surprised at the lack of muzzleloading supplies at Cabela’s. They had a ton of sabots that are illegal in Idaho. I found the same results elsewhere, but I had higher hopes of finding what I needed at a place like Cabela’s.

 

[ElkStalker]

answers from bottom to top.
Yes you should get a flinter. you may end up neglecting your cap locks though.
will skip the 10gauge because i have little experience with one. my 12's and 20's do all i need. plus i love shooting PRB from them.
Elk are tough critter's but not invincible. i prefer a 54, but have used a 50 with good placement. i have seen pass through of .50 prb on elk.
have not seen pass through with the .54. don't know what that shows but there it is.
if you can stick a 400g conical .50 across the top of an elks heart, his oil pressure is going to drop to zero in a hurry.

Thank you Deerstalker! I appreciate it.
I have read that people have had good results with a 50prb. I think that if I could get within 50 yds, I would be comfortable taking a broadside shot. No matter what, shot placement is paramount to the size of the projectile. So far in my limited experience harvesting 3 elk with my unmentionable, I usually see them at a distance. I could get within a hundred yards but closer than that they get skidding and run for the hills. There is also the possibility of getting within 30 feet in the timber, I just haven’t had that happen yet. I would be a lot more comfortable with a heavy conical from the 50, though I’ve also read opinions stating that they hadn’t noticed an appreciable difference between 50prb and conical. Maybe if hitting bone but I try not to do that, even with an ‘06 unmentionable.
I would not turn my nose up at a 12 gauge. I think that would also accomplish all of my non-big game needs.
At least one flintlock seams to just make sense in this age of unavailable components. Plus, I’ve always really wanted to experience a flinter. I’ve never fired one, but I think I have found my excuse to purchase one.
I don’t know how I’ve amassed so many of the same or similar calibers, but it makes sense to shrink the 50cal heard and maybe get something larger, or add a shotgun. I’m really just trying to think this all through and make the best decisions based on my actual needs for putting food on the table. The only one I’m really in a hurry to figure out is a solution for elk hunting. My Renegade right now will shoot a 3” 50yd group with the Hornady GP conical so I can trust it if I can get close enough. I’m going to test it with a half cotton ball over the powder and see what that does for me. And I will also shoot it at 75-100yds and see what the groups do. Muzzy elk season is here in a few days and deer has been open the whole time I’ve been trying to get things sorted out at the range. Next year I will be more prepared when it’s time to hunt.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Tip some corn starch on top of the powder for a firewall.
( Disclaimer, I've not read everything here, I'm in a hurry....).

 

[Brokennock]

Elk are successfully taken by archers with regularity.
Think of your muzzleloader as an extended archery weapon.
If archers can do it,,, can you get within 50 yards of an elk?
If so. A 20 gauge smoothrifle will take elk with a round ball and small game with shot. Ron LeClair took a bison with his 20 gauge smoothy. Are elk harder to put down than bison? (asking for real as I don't know)

What's the obsession with conical in a muzzleloader? Roundballs have been doing the job for centuries,,, when the hunter does his/her part.
I understand the ballistic advantages and all that. But, these are muzzleloaders, traditional ones at that......

Personally I have always wanted an early style rifle in .60 or .62 caliber. Thinking this would knock a pretty respectable hole in an elk or moose at a greater range than a smoothy in the same caliber.

 

[deerstalkert]

i have always found that a prb will penetrate better than a conical, whereas the conical will expand more than a prb. choose your desire and play Indian. get as close as you can hit a 3 inch target constantly. i have killed a bushel of elk and never had to chase one more than 50 yards if it had a half inch hole through it. only ever hat one go more than 60 yards and that was only a .45 inch hole.

 

[deerstalkert]

stutter

 

[longcruise]

54 and PRB. Proven it myself and seen it done by others on elk. Send your TC Hawken 50 to Hoyt. He has done three for me and the results are great. The TC Hawken 50 can go to 54. The Renegade 50 can go to 54 or 58.

 

[hanshi]

A .50 or .54 prb will take elk and it will depend on the state regulations as to what the minimum caliber is. I have a .54 so that would be my choice. I also shoot nothing but ball, period.

But then: "The more bigger the projectile the more hurtful it will be to an elk".

 

[SciAggie]

My personal answer to that question was a .72 caliber English Sporting rifle. It shoots a 540 grain PRB.

Later I picked a .62 German Jaeger. It shoots a 340 grain PRB.

I’d be happy to tackle any North American game with either.

 

[longcruise]

A .50 or .54 prb will take elk and it will depend on the state regulations as to what the minimum caliber is. I have a .54 so that would be my choice. I also shoot nothing but ball, period.

But then: "The more bigger the projectile the more hurtful it will be to an elk".

Those state regs are definitely a factor. Here in Colorado Elk and Moose require a minimum 54 cal with RB and a minimum projectile weight of 210 grains. 50 is ok too as long as it's shooting a 210 minimum bullet.

So, if you ever plan to travel anywhere to hunt be sure to check the regs before you go!

 

[morehops52]

I bought a .54 Lyman GPH (1:32) many years ago in case I ever got a chance to go for elk. I used to shoot 110 gr 3f with a 430 T/C Maxi. Good to 100 yds easily but I backed it down to 90gr lately for white tails as I don't shoot that far. For my old eyes I added a peep and modified the front sight. Every deer I've hit with it fell in its tracks. Maxis shoot really well with mine and I liked them enough that a bought a T/C mold on ebay and cast up a lifetime supply (I'm an old guy). For elk I'd use 110gr powder and when sighting in I'd HIGHLY recommend a Lead Sled or a good chiropractor. It's a pounding at the range but you'll never feel it when you pull the trigger on an elk.

 

[ElkStalker]

My personal answer to that question was a .72 caliber English Sporting rifle. It shoots a 540 grain PRB.
View attachment 174865
Later I picked a .62 German Jaeger. It shoots a 340 grain PRB.
View attachment 174866
I’d be happy to tackle any North American game with either.

Those are beautiful!!! No problem with either of those calibers. Do you mind if I ask who made those rifles?
I found a Pedersoli Jeager that really caught my eye, but it was a fast twist 50.
Your bags and horns are really nice. Are those custom made?

 

[ElkStalker]

I bought a .54 Lyman GPH (1:32) many years ago in case I ever got a chance to go for elk. I used to shoot 110 gr 3f with a 430 T/C Maxi. Good to 100 yds easily but I backed it down to 90gr lately for white tails as I don't shoot that far. For my old eyes I added a peep and modified the front sight. Every deer I've hit with it fell in its tracks. Maxis shoot really well with mine and I liked them enough that a bought a T/C mold on ebay and cast up a lifetime supply (I'm an old guy). For elk I'd use 110gr powder and when sighting in I'd HIGHLY recommend a Lead Sled or a good chiropractor. It's a pounding at the range but you'll never feel it when you pull the trigger on an elk.

I had a Lyman GPH in 50 several years ago. I don’t quite remember why I sold it, but I shouldn’t have. I think I needed the money and thought I’d replace it down the road. Shortly after, Lyman quit contracting with Investarms. I did find a 50cal percussion barrel with the fast 1/38 twist. If it is actually in stock, I may just buy that to stick on my Great Plains Rifle. I remember that Great Plains Hunter was an absolute tack driver with 100gr of 2F and Hornady Great Plains 385gr connical.

 

[SciAggie]

Those are beautiful!!! No problem with either of those calibers. Do you mind if I ask who made those rifles?
I found a Pedersoli Jeager that really caught my eye, but it was a fast twist 50.
Your bags and horns are really nice. Are those custom made?

The English Sporting rifle was made by Craig Kern. That gun was ordered from The Gun Works many years ago. I am the original owner.
The Jaeger was made by Steve Zihn. I acquired it from a forum member here.
The bags are made by The Leatherman.
The scrimshawed horn was done by @PathfinderNC here on the forum. The small banded horn was made by Tim Crosby. He is on another forum.

 

[JB Books]

Those state regs are definitely a factor. Here in Colorado Elk and Moose require a minimum 54 cal with RB and a minimum projectile weight of 210 grains. 50 is ok too as long as it's shooting a 210 minimum bullet.

So, if you ever plan to travel anywhere to hunt be sure to check the regs before you go!

I wonder what Lewis & Clark would've said to someone telling them what minimum size rifle caliber and ball weight to use on Elk etc. We are so regulated with overlapping regs that just getting out of bed is violating something somewhere.

 

[ElkStalker]

The English Sporting rifle was made by Craig Kern. That gun was ordered from The Gun Works many years ago. I am the original owner.
The Jaeger was made by Steve Zihn. I acquired it from a forum member here.
The bags are made by The Leatherman.
The scrimshawed horn was done by @PathfinderNC here on the forum. The small banded horn was made by Tim Crosby. He is on another forum.

Thank you Sir! Very nice collection!
Someday I will get away from the factory produced rifles, but probably not anytime soon. Those are real treasures!

 

[Grenadier1758]

I wonder what Lewis & Clark would've said to someone telling them what minimum size rifle caliber and ball weight to use on Elk etc. We are so regulated with overlapping regs that just getting out of bed is violating something somewhere.

It was Lewis mainly. Based on the reports of the game encountered and reported on in earlier journals from the Canadien traders, the rifles at Harper's Ferry were modified or built to be 54 caliber.