Shooting patches and cleaning patches do not interchange well in either direction. They each serve different functions.
Can the need to swab be fixed?
- Thread starter renegadehunter
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Shooting patches and cleaning patches do not interchange well in either direction. They each serve different functions.
I got out and did some shooting last weekend. The main purpose was to test some different patch lubes, as I'm trying to get away from waxy Wonderlube / Bore butter type lubes. I used 75 grains of Scheutzen 2f, and a .530 ball. I used pillow ticking patches rather than my usual .015" cotton patches. Compressed with calipers, the former measure .015" and the latter measure .012". The overall shooting session went ok, but I definitely need to turn my jag down. I swabbed between every shot to see what the best group was for the different lubes and encountered multiple fail-to-fires. Once I started popping a cap after swabbing it got a little better, but I still had a couple after that. All went off after the nipple was removed and a bit of powder was added.
Shooting took place from sandbags at 50 yards. I was at a gun range, so some of the groups were more than likely influenced a bit by the Magnum rifle going off down the line right as I was applying pressure to the trigger, as well as the frustration of multiple F2F's. I know, I know, excuses excuses, but my point is that I feel all lubes showed promise and could shoot better than what is represented here. I also noticed afterwards when cleaning the gun that the wedge pin is wore to the point that it can be pushed in by hand, in fact it was slightly backed out when I went to take down the rifle, so that will be getting replaced.
Here are the groups: good, bad, and ugly... All were swabbed between shots except for the last one (the Hoppes patches).
This is the first one I shot, TOTW's mink oil. This is 7 shots. There are 3 together in the ragged hole at two o'clock. I will shoot this one some more, I feel a lot of this spread is from my own shooting ability, plus the gun range was at maximum capacity while shooting this group. If the shot at twelve o'clock is removed it would be a decent minute of deer group. These required about the same loading effort as the CA/DA patches, which was firm and I think they'd be really hard to seat without swabbing after a couple of shot.
I started realizing that I was going to run out of time to test them all, so this next group is only shot 3 shots. It is a 5 parts Denatured Alcohol to 1 part Castor oil lube, with the patches being set out to "dry" so that all the alcohol evaporates and only the CA is left on the patches.
This next one is Olive oil. It is one of the lubes used by a forum member that said it is what he uses without swabbing. He said he leaves them pretty damp, so these patches were soaked in pure Olive oil for a few minutes and then I applied medium pressure on the stack of 5 patches to drain off the excess. This lube resulted in loading effort that was definitely slick feeling and took less effort to seat than the Mink oil and CA/DA. This 5 shot group showed a lot of promise, especially considering the high shot was probably me.
This last group is a little different. This is 4 shots with my usual Hoppes BP solvent as a lube. I wanted to see what it would do without swabbing with the tighter pillow ticking patches. I lube these patches by getting them damp but no lube can be squeezed out of them. The group shows that the tighter patch greatly improved the bad fliers I usually start seeing by the 4th shot ( I wish I had time to shoot 2 or 3 more shots to really see), but it still really opens up after the second shot. The first two shots were about 3/4" apart (weird tears in the paper make it hard to tell), the 3rd shot is the low one and the 4th shot is the high one. These loaded with the least effort of all the lubes tried, even without the swabbing.
Shooting took place from sandbags at 50 yards. I was at a gun range, so some of the groups were more than likely influenced a bit by the Magnum rifle going off down the line right as I was applying pressure to the trigger, as well as the frustration of multiple F2F's. I know, I know, excuses excuses, but my point is that I feel all lubes showed promise and could shoot better than what is represented here. I also noticed afterwards when cleaning the gun that the wedge pin is wore to the point that it can be pushed in by hand, in fact it was slightly backed out when I went to take down the rifle, so that will be getting replaced.
Here are the groups: good, bad, and ugly... All were swabbed between shots except for the last one (the Hoppes patches).
This is the first one I shot, TOTW's mink oil. This is 7 shots. There are 3 together in the ragged hole at two o'clock. I will shoot this one some more, I feel a lot of this spread is from my own shooting ability, plus the gun range was at maximum capacity while shooting this group. If the shot at twelve o'clock is removed it would be a decent minute of deer group. These required about the same loading effort as the CA/DA patches, which was firm and I think they'd be really hard to seat without swabbing after a couple of shot.
I started realizing that I was going to run out of time to test them all, so this next group is only shot 3 shots. It is a 5 parts Denatured Alcohol to 1 part Castor oil lube, with the patches being set out to "dry" so that all the alcohol evaporates and only the CA is left on the patches.
This next one is Olive oil. It is one of the lubes used by a forum member that said it is what he uses without swabbing. He said he leaves them pretty damp, so these patches were soaked in pure Olive oil for a few minutes and then I applied medium pressure on the stack of 5 patches to drain off the excess. This lube resulted in loading effort that was definitely slick feeling and took less effort to seat than the Mink oil and CA/DA. This 5 shot group showed a lot of promise, especially considering the high shot was probably me.
This last group is a little different. This is 4 shots with my usual Hoppes BP solvent as a lube. I wanted to see what it would do without swabbing with the tighter pillow ticking patches. I lube these patches by getting them damp but no lube can be squeezed out of them. The group shows that the tighter patch greatly improved the bad fliers I usually start seeing by the 4th shot ( I wish I had time to shoot 2 or 3 more shots to really see), but it still really opens up after the second shot. The first two shots were about 3/4" apart (weird tears in the paper make it hard to tell), the 3rd shot is the low one and the 4th shot is the high one. These loaded with the least effort of all the lubes tried, even without the swabbing.
Griz44Mag
70 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2017
- Messages
- 4,326
- Reaction score
- 4,387
- Location
- Republic of Texas, District of Krum
Concerning the nipple issue, I have found the small hole nipples like HotShot have a tendancy to get restricted easily, especually when shooting heavy loads with more powder.
Every couple of shots I do a quick pick with my modified dental pick. That helps keep things moving along nicely without requiring a cap pop in between shots or groups.
Every couple of shots I do a quick pick with my modified dental pick. That helps keep things moving along nicely without requiring a cap pop in between shots or groups.
RHensley
Pilgrim
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2018
- Messages
- 189
- Reaction score
- 75
I the mix of equal amounts of peroxide alcohol Murphy oil soap. I have a small jar with lid that i keep cleaning patches in and this mix. When target practice I shoot then take one of these cleaning patches and squeeze as much liquid out and then swab the barrel. run a dry patch down it and reload. My thought is when hunting I only get one good shot. If I miss I get to see that glowing white flag If I hit as I should the deer will be just a few yards away. Also after the first shot if I have to I can drop the powder down the barrel then the ball. The residue left from the first shot will hold the ball to the powder long enough to shoot again. I wouldn't want to jar the gun and cause the ball to drop away from the powder but for a quick shot It's worked so far. Not as accurate as the patched ball but at close range to finish off a deer . Now my mind doesn't work like it use to so I either read this or was told this in either case I've done it and it worked. I should also say that I shoot a 54 with a 42 in. barrel with 100 grains 2F Goex.
Van1955
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2016
- Messages
- 43
- Reaction score
- 13
Stoney broke,
I just shot a match in freezing weathe with your mix, worked great! Many Thanks!!
Stony Broke
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2014
- Messages
- 819
- Reaction score
- 764
Glad it worked well for you. I've been using that mix for a lot of years now...and probably getting too old to change my ways.
8 BORE
50 Cal.
BOTTOM LINE
If what ever lube you are using for patches or minnies in all weather conditions works for you.,why change.
IF IT AINT BROKE-DONT FIX IT
If what ever lube you are using for patches or minnies in all weather conditions works for you.,why change.
IF IT AINT BROKE-DONT FIX IT
When the PRB becomes hard to load {usually 7-10 shots}, I don't use a swab to remove fouling....I use a bronze wire brush and dump the debris. The advantages of using a wire brush are ...it doesn't wet the next charge and it doesn't clog the TH...I use flintlocks most of the time.
If the rifle is a perc w/ a patent breech, the wire brush doesn't push the fowling into the flash channel.
I don't believe that if a bbl isn't swabbed after each shot that a different bbl presents itself....Tell that to all the head hit squirrels that were shot w/ the 4th or 5th shot w/o swabbing or wire brushing.
Do as you will because I'm not attempting to convert anybody, just relating how my trouble free hunting goes......Fred
If the rifle is a perc w/ a patent breech, the wire brush doesn't push the fowling into the flash channel.
I don't believe that if a bbl isn't swabbed after each shot that a different bbl presents itself....Tell that to all the head hit squirrels that were shot w/ the 4th or 5th shot w/o swabbing or wire brushing.
Do as you will because I'm not attempting to convert anybody, just relating how my trouble free hunting goes......Fred
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2015
- Messages
- 427
- Reaction score
- 419
I use a wet patch. Mixture equal parts alcohol, peroxide, Murphy's oil soap, and Marvel mistery oil. Cleans barrel as you load the ball. Can usually go through our typical club shoot without swabings. 20 to 25 shots.
I use a 3 to 1 mix of water to Ballistol when target shooting with a wet patch but not dripping wet. Can go 20 shots without wiping. When hunting I use mink oil patch. I shoot flintlock, use an undersize jag and keep a feather in touch hole when loading.
I am not the most experienced Muzzle loader but will add something new to the thread. When I started out, I had 2 Pawn shop CVA side locks then purchased a Lyman GPR 54 Kit which I then started to look more at accuracy. At the time, real BP was scarce around me and I hesitated to travel to purchase any. All I found was 1lb of Goex FFG.
Well, Read about duplexing BP with Substitutes and started shooting 15gr Goex FFG followed by 50gr BH209. BH209 is not very good on a sidelock by itself as they say. I tried some and got ignition delays. I molded my own balls and used pillow ticking with spit patch. With the Lyman 54 GPR, I'd say I swabbed like every 10-15 shots and that was mostly cause I felt like it was time more than groups opening up or stringing.
My only point to the OP's question of fixing is that I felt that duplexing the Goex and BH209 presented less fowling to have to deal with.
My son has a TC Hawken and likes to just use just for plinking. If he does not swab for each shot, it gets 3-5" vertical stringing @ 50 yards.
Just thought I'd throw this out.
Well, Read about duplexing BP with Substitutes and started shooting 15gr Goex FFG followed by 50gr BH209. BH209 is not very good on a sidelock by itself as they say. I tried some and got ignition delays. I molded my own balls and used pillow ticking with spit patch. With the Lyman 54 GPR, I'd say I swabbed like every 10-15 shots and that was mostly cause I felt like it was time more than groups opening up or stringing.
My only point to the OP's question of fixing is that I felt that duplexing the Goex and BH209 presented less fowling to have to deal with.
My son has a TC Hawken and likes to just use just for plinking. If he does not swab for each shot, it gets 3-5" vertical stringing @ 50 yards.
Just thought I'd throw this out.
Last edited by a moderator:
Too many irons in the fire right now to continue playing around with different lubes with out swabbing. I'm going to shoot today but have new sights to sight in first and foremost. Today I will also be finally trying to develop a load using 3f, I've always used 2f. My reason for trying 3f is from reading that folks experience less fouling from it compared to 2f, as well as I may be able to use less of it per shot and thus a pound will offer more shots. My 2f load is 75 grains, so I plan on starting at 65 grains of 3f and will do 5 grain increments up/down to see what it likes the best. I'll start with some shots at 25 yards to get the new sights relatively close to POA, and then go to 50 yards for group testing. If all goes well 3f will be what the new sights are set to. I will sight in using my normal Hoppes BP solvent as a patch lube, but hope to also have time to try some mink oil patches and maybe some CO/DA patches as well. I turned my jag down last night, so hopefully that will help with all of the F2F's I had last time. Last time was also a really rainy day and today so far is just cloudy and less humidity. I turned it down and then ran a cleaning patch down the bore to test fit, turned it down some more, etc. I stopped when it went down the bore with quite a bit less resistance then when I started. May not have turned it down quite far enough since the bore is clean, we'll see how it does once fouled. I also have some slightly bigger cleaning patches than I normally use, they may bunch up better than my normal ones. I'll see how the normal ones feel and go from there.
If all goes well during todays session and a good load can be developed, my next session will be experimenting with different lubes and no swabbing to see what groups look like. It may be that I end up just always swabbing with this rifle, we'll see. It's funny how different rifles like different things. One of my shooting partners has a New Englander that will absolutely stack RB with Birchwood/Casey #77 as a patch lube with no swabbing. My Renegade didn't like that lube at all even with swabbing...that was with my thinner patch setup though. I may try some of this today too if I have time.
If all goes well during todays session and a good load can be developed, my next session will be experimenting with different lubes and no swabbing to see what groups look like. It may be that I end up just always swabbing with this rifle, we'll see. It's funny how different rifles like different things. One of my shooting partners has a New Englander that will absolutely stack RB with Birchwood/Casey #77 as a patch lube with no swabbing. My Renegade didn't like that lube at all even with swabbing...that was with my thinner patch setup though. I may try some of this today too if I have time.
anaconda44
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 43
- Reaction score
- 2
I shot 50 shots with out swabing with lee real bullets in a tc 50 cal. They have a scraping grove on them scrapes fouling as you load. But after 10 shots tge groupdls open up. But you have to cast your own lee real bullets. But there claim is true no swabing needed
Well, the shooting session didn’t go so well. About 8 shots in something broke in the lock. I’ll start a new thread for that so this doesn’t turn into a lock repair thread.
I will say that it was going good up until that point. There was way less fouling with the 3f compared to what I’m used to with 2f and the turned down jag worked great. 8 shots swabbing all the way down and I didn’t have a single F2F.
I will say that it was going good up until that point. There was way less fouling with the 3f compared to what I’m used to with 2f and the turned down jag worked great. 8 shots swabbing all the way down and I didn’t have a single F2F.
Tb54
Pilgrim
Fascinating discussion guys. I can see the advantage of swabbing vs not swabbing, both in my target, and loading the gun, but it didn’t make a lot of sense to me. It would seem the tight fitting PRB, should swab the bbl as it’s loaded as good or better than a patch. A couple posts clarified a bit more for me. Though I’ve never experienced a main charge ignition problem in my CVA, due to swabbing, I can understand how some could, esp. the patent breech style. My CVA has a hollow bolt that screws in the side of the breech, with a flash hole facing fwd to ignite the charge causing less opportunity for scrapings to fall into it, though they still could. Seems to me now that you want a non water based, non petroleum based patch lube that leaves enough residue on the bore to emulsify the residue keeping it soft enough to allow the PRB to swab the bore despite its tapered shape where it meets the bore. I also like the idea of the powder charge being there before the bore is “ scraped” clean, at least in my style breech, because the carbon scrapings don’t have a chance to build up around the flame channel “ bolt” and carbon (glue) it in the breech. I shall stay tuned, and investigate this idea more.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,497
- Reaction score
- 5,649
.480 round balls from Hornady and
.10 Minuteman Supply prelude patches.....I just fired 50 .520 balls with .10 Minuteman patches, no cleaning between shots, was regularly ringing 8"x8" steel at 200 yards. They were gliding down the bore, grouped into a fist sized cluster at 100 but I was shooting offhand
Sometimes looser is better, when I see someone pounding a ball down a bore part of my soul dies
.10 Minuteman Supply prelude patches.....I just fired 50 .520 balls with .10 Minuteman patches, no cleaning between shots, was regularly ringing 8"x8" steel at 200 yards. They were gliding down the bore, grouped into a fist sized cluster at 100 but I was shooting offhand
Sometimes looser is better, when I see someone pounding a ball down a bore part of my soul dies
I don't swab in the traditional sense and I can shoot heavy 54 cal. loads all day long. Early on I was having issues with blow-by and torn patches with my cap lock Hawken. My solution was to ram a lubed 12 gage felt shotgun wad over the powder using the rounded ( non-tipped end of my rod ). Since it is larger than .54 bore diameter the wad make a tight fit and scrubs and lubes the bore clean every time and the new patched ball slides down just like with a clean barrel. Care must be taken to keep the wad centered on the muzzle otherwise it may slip off the ram rod tip half way down the barrel and not result in the scrubbing effect. If that happens I ram down a second wad.
What's the peroxide do?
The addition of hydrogen peroxide makes the solution a more aggressive cleaner. Even with the weak solutions of H2O2, an extra oxygen molecule is added and can promote rusting unless a good rust inhibiting lubricant is used following cleaning with the Murphy's Oil Soap, rubbing alcohol, hydrogen peroxide (MAP).
