Can you guys school me on grades of Hawkens? Quality, value, etc.

[Beaverman2]

I'm going to look at the GPR, failing to find one I'll go with one of the many TC variants. Appreciate it!

You shouldn't have any problem finding a GPR , plenty of them out there, I've a a handful over the years both cap and rock locks and all have performed well.

 

[LME]

My Father always said, buy the best yu can, it will pay for it's self in the long run

That sounded like my mother and my wife! My mother has been gone for a long time now but my wife took over! LOL!

 

[Rebel bull]

I appreciate it Bull. I certainly have! As usual it's a firehose of information and opinions! I have so much to learn

don't be afraid of broker, I've been buying and selling there since 10 and have had only 1 purchase that I got hosed on had 1 that I purchased that had a sewer pipe for a barrel I called and talked to the guy and we settled on a reasonable refund for the barrel this spring I wanted to build a muzzsleloading "Marers Leg " rifle 16" barrel 12" length of pull for the grandkids I can't believe how well it shoots at 25 yds I can put 3 shots in a group that the 10 yr old can cover with their palm offhand. so if you find one you like the looks of and they are willing to show you the bore go for it but also remember that each model and brand is different like the other person said the renagade has less drop at the heel then the hawken

 

[RobertIN]

@RobertIN, I do understand that you are looking for an entry level traditional muzzleloading rifle that conforms to the specifications of these entry level rifles and not a rifle that is a close version of a rifle built by Sam Hawken of John Gemmer. After all the copyright for naming has long since been passed. So, stick with the specifications of a relatively short barreled, 45 or 50 caliber rifle with a percussion lock and double set triggers. As stated by many of us, the brand name is less important at this stage of the search and your stated level of experience than the condition of the bore. For the entry level rifles, I recommend a percussion lock as these are less difficult to use proficiently by someone new to traditional muzzleloading and there is little benefit to spending extra money for a replacement percussion lock. The set triggers are acceptable but not great. I do prefer a barrel with a snailed breech to the drum and nipple as the snail is stronger (pay no attention to the what is called the "cleanout screw", it's not). Both will require some learning to keep the chambered breeches clean and the flash channels clear. There's plenty of threads here on the Forum on that topic. Some useful information can be found there.

When you have a rifle in your hands for inspection, be prepared to run a lubricated patch down the bore. You are looking for a load at the breech and if rust is present. Be aware that it is likely that the patch will pull out some very brown rust like material. It may be rust or oxidized Bore Butter (or other lubricant) left in the bore. With a bore light look for pitting on the lands or in the grooves. Ask what powder has been used. Pyrodex fouling has been well documented to cause irreparable harm to bores. If the rifle has been properly cleaned and rust inhibiting oils used, the bore should be fine although the patch pulling out the old oils will be a nasty brown color. Be very leery if the owner won't allow you to use a bore light or run a patch.

Enjoy the process of searching for a new to you rifle and learning of the joys tthat can come from using traditional muzzleloading rifles.

Good information! I'm not brand new to the world of traditional muzzleloading, but with percussion and half stocked hawken-esqe ones I certainly am. Once I built a traditions kentucky kit I caught the bug hard, few months later I had a Kibler completed and a pedersoli pistol torn down and redone. It's so much fun and this forum is wonderful!

 

[Trot]

I've had most of the the production brand guns over the last 50 years and if I wanted a halfstock plains type rifle I would get an Investarm rifle, no question about it. I still have two of the Investarm Hawken rifles and an Investarm made Lyman Trade rifle. All are fantastic shooters, best of all the production guns I've had. There are at least a couple on the buy sell board here right now.

 

[Coinneach]

@RobertIN, I do understand that you are looking for an entry level traditional muzzleloading rifle that conforms to the specifications of these entry level rifles and not a rifle that is a close version of a rifle built by Sam Hawken of John Gemmer. After all the copyright for naming has long since been passed. So, stick with the specifications of a relatively short barreled, 45 or 50 caliber rifle with a percussion lock and double set triggers. As stated by many of us, the brand name is less important at this stage of the search and your stated level of experience than the condition of the bore. For the entry level rifles, I recommend a percussion lock as these are less difficult to use proficiently by someone new to traditional muzzleloading and there is little benefit to spending extra money for a replacement percussion lock. The set triggers are acceptable but not great. I do prefer a barrel with a snailed breech to the drum and nipple as the snail is stronger (pay no attention to the what is called the "cleanout screw", it's not). Both will require some learning to keep the chambered breeches clean and the flash channels clear. There's plenty of threads here on the Forum on that topic. Some useful information can be found there.

When you have a rifle in your hands for inspection, be prepared to run a lubricated patch down the bore. You are looking for a load at the breech and if rust is present. Be aware that it is likely that the patch will pull out some very brown rust like material. It may be rust or oxidized Bore Butter (or other lubricant) left in the bore. With a bore light look for pitting on the lands or in the grooves. Ask what powder has been used. Pyrodex fouling has been well documented to cause irreparable harm to bores. If the rifle has been properly cleaned and rust inhibiting oils used, the bore should be fine although the patch pulling out the old oils will be a nasty brown color. Be very leery if the owner won't allow you to use a bore light or run a patch.

Enjoy the process of searching for a new to you rifle and learning of the joys tthat can come from using traditional muzzleloading rifles.

Good advice as always Grenadier1758.

 

[Hermit Tim]

I think this forum is as good a place as any to find a good hawken, You can’t go wrong with a TC or an Investarm rifle.

Yep.

 

[Black_Feather]

By the way the GPR is still being made but listed under the name Gemmer Hawken still made by investarms but imported by Gemmer and Clemmens out of La Grande, Oregon. It still says plains rifle on the barrel just like the GPR. Muzzle_loaders.com has them.

 

[Juice Jaws]

You want a Pinto or Cadillac?

I want a Cadillac on a Pinto budget

 

[Hermit Tim]

If you already have BP experience, and are wanting to dabble with half stock cap guns, try this: I go to pawn shops and small gun shops pretty frequently to see what they have. To date, I've bought many muzzleloaders in these ships for $125 or less. That includes two New Englanders and a Renegade. Bought a Traditions buckskinner, which was a fantastic little rifle, for $75 out the door. And this wasn't years ago. It's been just in the last five years or so.

The thing is this: most of the guys running these shops don't know or care about old used muzzleloaders, so they practically give them away. Back in 2014 I bought a nice Italian made .45 flintlock canoe gun in one of these shops for $100 out the door. Didn't look like it had been fired or handled much. Still have it. If you go this route just make sure they are unloaded first and give them a good cleaning. Then fire a couple blank loads, then light loads, and work your way up. And if you're broke like me, at the moment, most of these guys, at least around here, offer layaway plans. By the way, one of those little bore lights in your pocket wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[RobertIN]

If you already have BP experience, and are wanting to dabble with half stock cap guns, try this: I go to pawn shops and small gun shops pretty frequently to see what they have. To date, I've bought many muzzleloaders in these ships for $125 or less. That includes two New Englanders and a Renegade. Bought a Traditions buckskinner, which was a fantastic little rifle, for $75 out the door. And this wasn't years ago. It's been just in the last five years or so.

The thing is this: most of the guys running these shops don't know or care about old used muzzleloaders, so they practically give them away. Back in 2014 I bought a nice Italian made .45 flintlock canoe gun in one of these shops for $100 out the door. Didn't look like it had been fired or handled much. Still have it. If you go this route just make sure they are unloaded first and give them a good cleaning. Then fire a couple blank loads, then light loads, and work your way up. And if you're broke like me, at the moment, most of these guys, at least around here, offer layaway plans. By the way, one of those little bore lights in your pocket wouldn't be a bad idea.

Good call on bringing the bore light, I'll bring an illuminated archery nock with me that ought to do the trick. I'll stick one in the glovebox and stop by random pawn shops for the time being. Should be kind to my budget as well.

 

[Hermit Tim]

Good call on bringing the bore light, I'll bring an illuminated archery nock with me that ought to do the trick. I'll stick one in the glovebox and stop by random pawn shops for the time being. Should be kind to my budget as well.

Good luck with your quest. Let us know what you come up with. Another benefit about buying guns like this is you get lots of tinkering opportunity. Right now I've got a 14 inch Traditions Deerhunter that is fixing to be an eleven inch Deerhunter. Shoots great at 14 but I want it shorter. Got another in the project pile I'm starting soon that is going to be an 8 inch trapper. Then I'm planning on turning one into a blanket gun. Then a couple other pawn shop finds I want to reshape and add some style. Just a fun hobby to do this custom stuff to cheap guns. If I had a Kibler I'd hate myself if I ever decided to take a hacksaw to it...

 

[ETipp]

I think the occasional rifle maker puts out (unknowingly) a "dud". I bought a T\C Hawken kit rifle in the late 70's. My buddies had CVA's (IIRC). That Hawken of mine just never consistently shot near POA. I tried every size ball, patch, lube but just could not get it to group consistently. I finally settled on 60gr FF (50 Cal) using a PRB. (I don't recall the details of ball size or patch or lube). But that rifle would put two in a 2" group at 75 yards, then the next two would be 8"-10" away...and not the same side!!!

I replaced the factory barrel with a GM "drop in". At the time it was $200. Best money ever spent. Now I'll shoot Hornady Conicals over 100gr FF and get 5 shot groups of 5" or less at 100 yards.

Again, not knocking T\C......every now and then.........

What you experienced is not uncommon for TC’s. Some are not easy to come up with an accurate load with RB. They will, however, be tack drivers with conical, especially Maxi Balls. TC put shallow grooves in their rifles.

For a hunting application, a Hawken style rifle is hard to beat. Great mountain and/or thicker woods rifles. Personally, I prefer the Renegade over the Hawken for a pure hunting tool. I do not like brass in a hunting rifle.

My wife owns a .50 CVA Hawken, not the highest quality rifle but it’s a very accurate deer tool. I now own a .54 GPR. It’s a real RB shooter.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

What you experienced is not uncommon for TC’s. Some are not easy to come up with an accurate load with RB. They will, however, be tack drivers with conical, especially Maxi Balls. TC put shallow grooves in their rifles.

For a hunting application, a Hawken style rifle is hard to beat. Great mountain and/or thicker woods rifles. Personally, I prefer the Renegade over the Hawken for a pure hunting tool. I do not like brass in a hunting rifle.

My wife owns a .50 CVA Hawken, not the highest quality rifle but it’s a very accurate deer tool. I now own a .54 GPR. It’s a real RB shooter.

I'm with you on the shiny brass thing. I prefer steel being browned or dulled down with a solution.

Here's my much redone T\C Hawken. GM barrel, "real" hawken triggers and TG. I just got tired of the standard T\C look as well as the shallow grove barrel. I used a darkening solution on all the brass of the original T\C.

 

[RobertIN]

Good luck with your quest. Let us know what you come up with. Another benefit about buying guns like this is you get lots of tinkering opportunity. Right now I've got a 14 inch Traditions Deerhunter that is fixing to be an eleven inch Deerhunter. Shoots great at 14 but I want it shorter. Got another in the project pile I'm starting soon that is going to be an 8 inch trapper. Then I'm planning on turning one into a blanket gun. Then a couple other pawn shop finds I want to reshape and add some style. Just a fun hobby to do this custom stuff to cheap guns. If I had a Kibler I'd hate myself if I ever decided to take a hacksaw to it...

I certainly will! I can't help but think I'll wind up doing the same thing. I'm a tinkerer, no if ands or buts. Projects feed a part of my brain that nothing else can. Sometimes I wish my Colonial was shorter but unless I hit the lottery that's NEVER going to happen lol.

 

[LME]

@RobertIN, I do understand that you are looking for an entry level traditional muzzleloading rifle that conforms to the specifications of these entry level rifles and not a rifle that is a close version of a rifle built by Sam Hawken of John Gemmer. After all the copyright for naming has long since been passed. So, stick with the specifications of a relatively short barreled, 45 or 50 caliber rifle with a percussion lock and double set triggers. As stated by many of us, the brand name is less important at this stage of the search and your stated level of experience than the condition of the bore. For the entry level rifles, I recommend a percussion lock as these are less difficult to use proficiently by someone new to traditional muzzleloading and there is little benefit to spending extra money for a replacement percussion lock. The set triggers are acceptable but not great. I do prefer a barrel with a snailed breech to the drum and nipple as the snail is stronger (pay no attention to the what is called the "cleanout screw", it's not). Both will require some learning to keep the chambered breeches clean and the flash channels clear. There's plenty of threads here on the Forum on that topic. Some useful information can be found there.

When you have a rifle in your hands for inspection, be prepared to run a lubricated patch down the bore. You are looking for a load at the breech and if rust is present. Be aware that it is likely that the patch will pull out some very brown rust like material. It may be rust or oxidized Bore Butter (or other lubricant) left in the bore. With a bore light look for pitting on the lands or in the grooves. Ask what powder has been used. Pyrodex fouling has been well documented to cause irreparable harm to bores. If the rifle has been properly cleaned and rust inhibiting oils used, the bore should be fine although the patch pulling out the old oils will be a nasty brown color. Be very leery if the owner won't allow you to use a bore light or run a patch.

Enjoy the process of searching for a new to you rifle and learning of the joys tthat can come from using traditional muzzleloading rifles.

Who has documented anything about Pyrodex being worse for a gun than Black powder?

 

[Grenadier1758]

@LME, I have made it clear that when properly cleaned of fouling, the use of Pyrodex is quite acceptable for use as a substitute powder in percussion firearms. It is also well documented here on the Forum that when the perchlorate fouling is not fully cleaned and neutralized will oxidize more quickly than the fouling from black powder. A search on the Forum will find a number of cases where uncleaned Pyrodex fouling has rusted out a gun barrel. It's the fouling, and lack of cleaning not the Pyrodex itself. I'm not going to get into the hangfires from the need for an increased ignition temperature from Pyrodex and the total unsuitability of Pyrodex as an ignition powder in a flint lock.

 

[LME]

@LME, I have made it clear that when properly cleaned of fouling, the use of Pyrodex is quite acceptable for use as a substitute powder in percussion firearms. It is also well documented here on the Forum that when the perchlorate fouling is not fully cleaned and neutralized will oxidize more quickly than the fouling from black powder. A search on the Forum will find a number of cases where uncleaned Pyrodex fouling has rusted out a gun barrel. It's the fouling, and lack of cleaning not the Pyrodex itself. I'm not going to get into the hangfires from the need for an increased ignition temperature from Pyrodex and the total unsuitability of Pyrodex as an ignition powder in a flint lock.

I can agree with you if you are talking about Flintlocks having a problem with Pyrodex but not percusion rifles. As far as cleaning I don't know Which is easier to clean? I would think they are close to the same from what I have been told. I used a rifle with Pyrodex and it performed flawless . Accuracy was excellent. As far as any barrel damage there is none that I can see? The problem is people down grade Pyrodex which keeps new people scared to use it. When one makes a blanket statement putting down a product it does a disservice to new shooters that don't have access to black powder. If it were as bad as some people say it is I would not use it. I also think the people that gripe about Pyrodex may not a lot about how to use their rifles?

 

[Grenadier1758]

@LME, you and I are arguing about how much we agree with each other. Pyrodex fouling is easily cleaned with the same cleaning practices we use with black powder. Fouling, properly cleaned and followed by a good lubricant keeps the bore protected as you have demonstrated. It's the improper cleaning that is of concern and that's what any buyer of a used muzzleloader must be aware of. And that is applicable to all sources of powder fouling.

Kudos to you for taking care of your rifle and using the powder you have to get good accuracy and long term care. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

 

[LME]

@LME, I have made it clear that when properly cleaned of fouling, the use of Pyrodex is quite acceptable for use as a substitute powder in percussion firearms. It is also well documented here on the Forum that when the perchlorate fouling is not fully cleaned and neutralized will oxidize more quickly than the fouling from black powder. A search on the Forum will find a number of cases where uncleaned Pyrodex fouling has rusted out a gun barrel. It's the fouling, and lack of cleaning not the Pyrodex itself. I'm not going to get into the hangfires from the need for an increased ignition temperature from Pyrodex and the total unsuitability of Pyrodex as an ignition powder in a flint lock.

You know and I know if someone cleans the rifle and follows the directions that come with the rifle he/she will not have any problem. You and I also know 99% of problems are operator error not the product. The case I am trying to get you to grasp is the way you put it. If you use pyrodex you are doomed to have failures. This may cause some people to not take up our hobby. I hope this clarifies my intent?