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Can't find a BP Gun?

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Many of the manufacturers seem to be dropping by the wayside, in the manufacture of the old favorites. Not to mention the making of newer models.
Does this spell the end of our much loved hobby,pastime, and lifestyle?
Distributers are no longer supplying ( Navy Arms)
Like who cares...even i.line manufactures????
Guess we better stock up on locks & barrels, and other goodies.
Old Ford
 
Some manufactures have gone by the way side, but there are still plenty of smoke poles to be had!

If anything, I have seen an increase in offerings as of late! Cabelas carries a pretty extensive line of traditional style guns, as do many other vendors.
 
There are plenty of new production guns still being manufactured. Just like everything else, the market is shifting to Internet sales. Try the big on-line sales outfits and you'll be amazed how many new rifles there are out there. As a first gun, I would recommend that you stick with the tried-and-true Lyman or Thompson Center rifles.
 
The market looks good to me. There are hundreds more good gunbuilders now than there were in the 18th century. Making excellent rifles and guns a few at a time in their workshops with top shelf components like Siler locks and L.C. Rice barrels.

We live in fortunate times. :thumbsup:
 
.
. oct 24 / 1:45am


because i've only been in blackpowder for exactly 15 months it's difficult for me to say precisely where the sport is going - up or down.

i can say that since obama came to office sales of weapons and almost everything related to bp is running at peak levels.. for example, cabelas is 5 weeks (minimum) behind in filling orders for lemat revolvers, graf & sons say they are 3 months behind in getting some brands of musket caps, the common .454 lead round ball is sold out on half of my usual suppliers, ditto powder, etc., etc.

but, what happens when he finally goes away ? that's the real test of our survival..

one thing i have learned, and this is simple economics, is that companies will make only the items that sell.. if you're looking for low volume items, then you had better stock up.. if, however, you are looking for something that is very popular like the walker, or hawken, or '51 navy, then you should be pretty safe for at least the next year or two..

a problem i do see is the lack of new models from "our" era (flint and percussion).. the only new weapon i've seen come on the market since 2008 is the pedersoli howdah and they are selling very well.. at one time, cabela was 4-5 weeks behind in orders for them and they have now introduced a rifled sxs .58 caliber version.. so again, certain models are hot, others not.

as you mentioned, navy arms has virtually dropped out of the game for flint and percussion and that is troubling to me.. val forgett, jr. apparently does not share sr.'s vision and is going off into some strange sideline having to do with rare ammunition and other modern lines - to our loss.. but it's a business to him and i'm sure the ol' man left him a pretty sizable trust fund so he could probably care less what we want.

the real weakness here is supply.. pietta has just about taken the lion's share of common revolvers and such but that leaves a huge hole in everything else - rifles, single shot pistols, muskets, etc.. besides lyman, pedersoli and uberti who is there ? for blackpowder to survive in the long run, we need more companies that are willing to "see" the market and start real quantity production vis-a-vis colt doing a gen 4.. to me, that would be the truest measure of our long term survival.

will we see that ? sadly, i doubt it.

just my $.02

~d~
 
We do live in a period where there is a large variety of quality components,builders and production guns. Some models you can't get anymore though. Some things like powder,flint,caps can be had but at greater expense. Lots of barrels out there but perhaps not exactly what you want; replacement drop-ins for TC/Lyman from GM are hard to get right now.

Now is a great time to have a custom rifle built but it is expensive and wait times are probably a bit long with some builders too. The inline market is what is causing the decline in traditonal rifles; a quick look at the TC website will confirm that. I wouldn't have one of those if you gave it to me. All considered; if you look around a bit you can still find what you need.
 
Walks with fire said:
We do live in a period where there is a large variety of quality components,builders and production guns. Some models you can't get anymore though. Some things like powder,flint,caps can be had but at greater expense. Lots of barrels out there but perhaps not exactly what you want; replacement drop-ins for TC/Lyman from GM are hard to get right now.

I just don't see powder and caps as a great expense? Supplies may be more than you old timers remember, but compared to other hobbies shooting is inexpensive once you get the gun. I could shoot for years on what it cost to join a golf course around here.

Now is a great time to have a custom rifle built but it is expensive and wait times are probably a bit long with some builders too. The inline market is what is causing the decline in traditonal rifles; a quick look at the TC website will confirm that. I wouldn't have one of those if you gave it to me. All considered; if you look around a bit you can still find what you need.

Stop by the N-SSA in VA during one of the national skirmishes. There are a whole bunch of production and custom rifles and pistol available. I don't see the vendors having any problem getting stuff. The problem, locally its almost impossible to get anything other than pistols. Several of the store owners have told me that it just not worth their time. We are a niche market, so it makes sense.

Michael Ivancic
Iredell Blues
4th North Carolina, Company A
 
I don't see it as overly expensive but costs have been rising over the last 4-5 years in particular. You mentioned golf and I used to play quite a bit of it; it's too expensive for me to play much anymore other than the local farm course for 350 bucks a membership.

Your right about the local availability of BP stuff too.
 
The sad fact is while there are still some serious traditional shooters, there isn't near as many people starting in the hobby. And large manufacturers need volume to justify the production.It is the new shooters that buy from the larger manufacturers . Untill we start getting more new shooters the number of manufacturers will continue to decline.
 
Cost is a big factor also- Take a look at what your local gun store ownder has on his shelf. You can buy a 9mm pistol shooting 9 rounds for under $250 bucks NIB. and he can usually sell all he can get. While that 400 buck walker sits on his shelf gathering dust. Partly it's because of supply and demand, and also partly it's because of too much work in loading and cleaning a BP weapon. And I believe it's also the so called pucker factor- People have heard all the horror stories involved with BP weapons- cook off of cylinders, muzzle flash back on long guns, and other such tails.
So if they aint buying em we aint gonna make em or sell em.
 
ohio ramrod said:
The sad fact is while there are still some serious traditional shooters, there isn't near as many people starting in the hobby. And large manufacturers need volume to justify the production.It is the new shooters that buy from the larger manufacturers . Untill we start getting more new shooters the number of manufacturers will continue to decline.

BINGO ! ! !

you can chop my long-winded rant down to the last sentence of ohio's - we need new blood.

poor private has the same idea from the retail perspective.

so what's the solution...? i can tell you it isn't the nmlra nor the nra (for bp).. what we need is nore publicity on the lines of what "Lock and Load" did during the rifle segment - show people that it's still alive *and* fun.

personally, i think we need two new forms of "advertisement" - a really good magazine with nothing but blackpowder (maybe even surrender the high ground and include 'those' other products) and a 30 minute television show like the ones benelli and beretta have on the sports channel at 5am.. i know, that's not exactly prime time, but it's better than nothing.

if ppl could see it in action, hear it from "experts" and read it for themselves, we would grow like a weed.

i actually learned almost everything i know about photography (enough to become a navy ship's photographer) simply by reading monthly magazines.. likewise, i never went a month without my copy of "pc magazine" back in the early 90's, which also helped me to actual fulltime employment.. that's the power of print; imagine what television could do...!

now, where do we get funding for all this ? sorry, i'm just the idea man. :thumbsup:

~d~
 
I don't get it.

The title of the thread implies that someone can't find a bp gun to buy. Which, of course, is ridiculous; there are certainly many good outfitters and custom gun builders on the internet as just a few seconds on this forum will confirm.

The subject of the thread, however, seems to be that the sport is (perceived by some as) facing impending doom; the evidence for that is the alleged demise of (all? - several? - one or two?) distributors/manufacturers.

We are a niche market. We ALWAYS have been. That hasn't changed in over 40 years. The loss of one or two suppliers is a large percentage, but it's happened before and we've somehow managed to survive. I just don't see the doom and gloom. And there are many young people entering the sport - ask any hunter education muzzleloading instructor or the local 4H shooting sports advisers. If you're convinced otherwise get up out of your recliner and go do something about it - become a muzzleloading instructor for 4h or volunteer for the hunter education program. Quit blaming everyone else and saying someone else is responsible for fixing it.
 
I think though, that if and when all the production models disappear, we will only have custom makers left, and then the cost of getting into the sport will be so prohibitive, that it will snowball until it's dead.
 
R.M. said:
I think though, that if and when all the production models disappear, we will only have custom makers left, and then the cost of getting into the sport will be so prohibitive, that it will snowball until it's dead.
Well, now, there's a real positive attitude. If you were the guy I ran into at the local range you sure wouldn't convince me to get involved in black powder shooting. Do you do ANYTHING to promote muzzleloading yourself, or is it someone else's job?
 
Those are pretty harsh words IMO. My intent wasn't to be negative.
Would running a BP league count?
Would belonging to the NMLRA count?
Would belonging to the TMA count?
Would belonging to the NRA count?
Would belonging to my State Ass. count?
I try.
 
"And there are many young people entering the sport - ask any hunter education muzzleloading instructor or the local 4H shooting sports advisers"

If the answers where simple, the sport would be growing by leaps and bounds. Unfortunately, it's not, which I regret.

Yes, the 4H Shooting is growing, I watch it at the state level and I appreciate the 4H's efforts.

But, let's be realistic, the kids are driven to shoots by their parents and the parents do most the work. They get them to the shoot, for the most part put up the target stands, hang the target, load the rifle and coach. Reality, the kid pulls the trigger, and the parent is in the background picture, smiling.

Let's fast forward, the kid gets a driver license, is enrolled in high school athletics, enrolled in soccer, summer baseball and 4H at the next level. For the males, let's not forget football, the most importand thing in small towns.

The kid gets into rodeo and has a $40,000 truck, 5th wheel trailer to haul the 4H citter around.

Where did BP shooting go?

It's Tuesday morning at the barber shop, which is more important to the locals or will make the local newspaper, Johnny scored the winning touchdown Friday night or he shot a 48XXX Sunday?

I value the outdoors, I just do not know how to change things nor how to make them grow.

I tried, a father can not compete with trucks and girls?

Oh, the single female household is not contributing to the the growth of shooting nor is living in the city.

RDE
 
mykeal,

I know that you do not agree with R.M., but he has insight which is regretful.

Who makes U.S. made muzzle loading weapons, with the exception of T/C (which appears to be at a reduced level) except the custom builders?

I appreciate what the custom builders do for a living.

But, the difference in price of a custom made gun versus a factory gun and the waiting period, will cause a lot of folks to not enter into the BP world. Factory gun, $600 versus a custom gun over $1000, $400 is a lot of money to some folks along with instant gratification versus waiting 12 months or more to receive a gun.

Before a person could go to a store and fondle a gun to see if it fit him. With a custom gun you do not know until is arrives.

Though, if I had all the answers, I would be rich.

RDE
 
The problem, as described, is that BP shooting is a niche market. In fact, we love it because it is. We love that it connects us to generations of other shooters long before us. We love that it allows us to do things the old way. We think there's a certain beauty in the lines of a wooden stock...the elegance of a lock...the intricate details that show that someone thought enough of the sport to invest hundreds of hours to make a single gun. We love the smell...the sound...the smoke. We embrace the challenge of mastering that which our forebearers discarded for modern efficiency (which has it's own beauty that many of us also appreciate). We are not the norm. We are the crazy sort who take pleasure in doing things the hard way. Even if we were living in the times we act like we're in, we would be those people who embrace even older weapons, because that's just who we are.

The interesting thing is that though we will never be the norm, we take part in a unique hobby - shooting BP is one of the few obscure hobbies that actually attacts the norm. I've found this to be true time and again. I got into this hobby doing pirate festivals, and I'm part of a crew that contracts out to do them. Our crew makes the shows exist. We fire guns, and the "normal" people flock to us from miles around. They have no choice - there's just something instinctually alluring about it. If you spend a second to look at the "do you share your rifle thread" you'll have more evidence of this. Normal people...even those that don't like modern guns...love blackpowder.

That said, I think there will always be interest in blackpowder. It's a significant part of our heritage, and it has a natural attraction. Of course, not everyone will jump into the hobby just because they appreciate it. It is a very time consuming hobby, and most normal people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice their other interests to get into it...but some would. It's up to us to expose them to it, and teach them it's ways.

Oddly enough, we get help from all sorts of sources - movies about pirates (i.e. Pirates of the Carribean) and wars (i.e. The Patriot), tv shows which are set in the time periods (i.e. John Adams) or simply try to analyze old weaponry or "myths" (i.e. Mythbusters), books which romanticize or describe the periods, modern gun lovers, historians, etc. We may look at some of these sources and, in our arrogance, scoff at them as not being HC/PC/or just not to our standards. We must never do that. While we may aspire to be more true to the hobby, they are all things that serve it. If a remark must be made, have the presence of mind to make it out of earshot of those that wouldn't understand.

With regards to availability, it is unfortunate there are few US suppliers of BP guns. There are a number of artillery suppliers, but in fact, I can only think of T/C as an American manufacturer of traditional firearms. Even when CVA stopped dealing with traditional BP, they, like Traditions and Lyman, were selling imported traditional guns. There are other suppliers, like Pedersoli and the Indian manufacturers, which continue to produce functional tradition BP firearms. While some people would say that the shortage of American manufacturers is a bad sign (and I'd agree), it is not something unique to our hobby, and in no way indicates the pending collapse of it.

I didn't grow up around guns. My total experience with them was shooting a .22 rifle when I was in the Boy Scouts. My interest in modern guns is only due to my interest in blackpowder (though I continue to prefer BP over modern). I got into this hobby about 5-6 years ago, and my first gun of any type was a Pedersoli Kentucky pistol. I've since accumulated 3 rifles, 4 additional pistols, a Japanese matchlock, and a cannon. I've had no issues finding these, and many of them were purchased used, some for less than $50. It is definitely an accessible hobby to anyone who wants to get involved, and the guns are available if you spend a little time looking (if you can't find a deal on a gun, I'll sell you one of mine at the exact amount it cost me).

I'm 30, and not one of the people on my crew is over 40, and we regularly have people shooting with us (many that we taught to shoot, and that are shooting our guns) that are still in their teens, so you don't have to be an old timer to appreciate something that's old (nothing against old timers - I plan on being one some day, and I expect I'll still love blackpowder)!

Sorry if this is a bit long. After reading some of the negativity I felt I needed to say my piece.
 
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