Carrying Extra Cylinders for a C&B Pistol

[Artificer]

I find it curious that there's such a good market for spare cylinders today.... With no sending your gun in for timing adjustments, alignment or anything else.

Sumpin's not right, whether then or now.

The main differences came from how precisely measuring instruments were made and that made machines ever more precise, which made instruments more precise and so on.

The French tried to come up with the Interchangeable Parts system in their Government Arsenals the 18th century, but did not make it. Yet their inspection gauges were the first major step.

Eli Whitney is often given credit as the Father of the Interchangeable parts system. However, when he did his Dog and Pony Show about picking pieces of muskets and assembling them into muskets, the fit of the parts were very loose and not really up to the standard of hand fitted parts.

What are often called the "M1816" type muskets today and actually are M1822/1830 Muskets were much closer to but not quite achieving "Interchangeable Parts" status. They must have had better and more accurate inspection gauges by then as original parts from different contractors can often be fitted with not a lot of hand fitting to Armory and other Contract Guns. I can personally confirm that as these original Flint Muskets were so popular world wide for International Muzzle Loading Competition. I always tried to keep three original (preferred) or a combination of original and repro Tumblers and Sears especially and was always able to hand fit at least one part to an original musket when needed without major difficulty.

John Hall really deserves the title of Father of the Interchangeable Parts system in this country with the many machines he invented and his Breech Loading Flintlock and later Percussion Rifles. Besides the many machines he invented for his own rifle works and ones he made for Harpers Ferry Armory, his ultimate achievement came in the form of the M1841 "Mississippi" rifle that was the first U.S. made arm made completely on the Interchangeable parts system. Harpers Ferry NHS has proudly displayed the inspection gauges for many years. Probably took them a couple hours to clean the finger and face smudges off the glass cases I left on them in the 1980's. GRIN.

Other contractors were working on the Interchangeable Parts system and improved certain areas as well during the 1830's and 40's. The British bought machinery and gauges from the U.S. and improved parts interchangeability a little more for their P1853 Arms.

Arms production and advancements at the U.S. Arsenals slowed in the 1850's, but civilian firms improved parts interchangeability even more. The 1860's saw almost an explosion of parts interchangeability and more improvements on machines to make arms for TWBTS.

I began working "Civil War" guns at the NSSA nationals in 1974. A very sizeable percentage of guns shot in those days were originals and NOS original parts for U.S. guns were in huge supply. Still, we often went to the vendors who carried large numbers of parts and with modern precision measuring instruments, picked out the parts that best fit the locks we worked on from dozens or even hundreds of NOS parts. Some hand fitting was still necessary for the best fit and performance, even so.

Many people do not realize the huge leap in precision from the 19th century overseas and by Springfield Armory culminating in the M1903 rifle. The tolerances for the fit of ALL the parts in that receiver combined are only .008" maximum. However, one MUST have headspace gauges when swapping bolt bodies!!!

In the late 1950's, 1960's and 70's, machining came to a whole new level of accuracy never seen before when tolerances were held in the Hundred Thousandths of an Inch (.00001") or tighter for the space program. TRW was a company that manufactured things for the rocket and space industries in the 1950's. They had NEVER made a gun when they took up a contract for the M14 rifle. However, because they were used to machining to such tight tolerances for rockets and the space program - they completed their educational orders and other contracts in record time and brought the price of the M14 and parts DOWN from the cost of Springfield Arsenal and other Civilian "Gun" manufacturers. This was in the Pre-CNC era when it was done by skilled machinists. This was due to a combination of more accurate precision measuring instruments and more accurate machines.

"Comparators" were machines first used in the U.S. Arsenals from about the 1940's on to more accurately compare and measure parts. These were truly "Buck Rogers" Science Fiction stuff when they were first used. Nowadays we have lasers to more accurately measure things than ever before and they are in common use by the building trades.

From 1974 to 2005 I saw an increase in precision of the interchangeability of Italian and other replica revolvers that was truly notable. Still, I would not switch Cap and Ball cylinders without at least using a ranging rod to check them today.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Thank you for the kind words.
Gus

 

[cynthialee]

I doubt that anyone was switching cylinders astride and moving at any pace.
I could easily see a rider in desperate need taking a defensive position in a hasty moment, dismounting and rearming in short order.

As for the document. I believe the story as written. There was no reason to even mention it in the story as the extras played no part in the story other than as background information.

 

[denster]

Cinthialee makes a good point. Having spare loaded cylinders would be most useful if one had to take up a defensive position. Say if your pony was shot out from underneath you.
I don't know why this subject always generates so much controversy. If carrying spare loaded cylinders was common then there would be more reporting of it. However since it could be done likely sometimes it was, as Zonies post indicates.
Mechanically it would not be a problem as the cylinder is not a fitted part. By that I mean that, in the day, if your say 1851 Navy was in time with it's cylinder any other correctly machined 1851 Navy cylinder would also be in time in it. Same today with Pietta cylinders being interchangeable with Piettas same with Uberti and others within their same manufacturer.

 

[M. De Land]

I bought a spare cylinder for my 58 Remington Pietta and it drops right in and functons prefectly but it shoots to a different point of impact with the same load that is well centered with the original cylinder.This means alignment is different which is a common problem with drop in cylinders.
Range rods are alright for approximate misalignment checking but are not really all that accurate for perfect alignment which very few production guns of any make have. That requires line boring which is only found in very high end custom or semi-custom guns.
Actually you can pick up misalignment with your eye and a good goose neck auto lamp that a range rod will not detect.
This gun was bought in the late 80's.

 

[denster]

With all due respect alignment with additional cylinders is not a problem. Certainly not a common one. It is possible if there has been a dimensional change in the making of the frame with replica makers over decades but cylinders from the same era would work fine.
However the point of this discussion was back in the day did spare cylinders have to be custom fit to the gun. The answer is "no" not then not now.

 

[pargent]

It is amazing that the US made Colt revolver and US MOUNTED TROOPS , Texas Rangers ,CSA Cav. set the known world of mounted combat on its head ,allowed small mounted units to engage and defeat much larger enemies in running mounted warfare , these revolvers and tactics were adopted by many nations at the time ,yet almost no US people bother to reference this vast material but rather rely on hearsay and Hollywood babble :idunno: :shake:

 

[denster]

In the type of combat to which you refer I personally would have preferred multiple pistols. However this has nothing to do with some individual at some point carrying multiple loaded cylinders for his personal weapon. Cylinders were not and are not a fitted part but common among the same model and caliber.

 

[M. De Land]

Well, if you want the same performance from them they do indeed need to be individually fit to the same frame.
If all you expect is for them to basically function than I could agree with your premise cautiously but you seldom will get the full potential possible from a drop in cylinder that is not fit up to the frame and base pin.
I know because I have done such work for a long time in modern revolvers as well as reproduction guns.
Also, I have never seen a production gun of any make that could not be improved on if one is trained in what to do and has the tools and ability to make it happen.
Another point I don't agree on is some technique employed by factory trained smiths as custom gun makers, such as Linebaugh, Bowlen or Galleger have gone far beyond what factory mechanics are trained to do.

 

[denster]

All right I'll bite. What parts of a reproduction percussion cylinder do you feel need to be fit to an individual frame and barrel to duplicate the performance of the out of the box cylinder from the factory. Please no reference to modern double action revolvers or to custom line bored revolvers costing thousands of dollars.
I assume that you believe that reproduction revolvers retailing between $150 and $250 have cylinders that are custom machined and hand fit at the factory to each individual gun?

 

[Artificer]

With all due respect alignment with additional cylinders is not a problem. Certainly not a common one. It is possible if there has been a dimensional change in the making of the frame with replica makers over decades but cylinders from the same era would work fine..

With all due respect, in my experience of working many reproduction revolvers for NSSA shooters in the 70's through the 90's, factory supplied spare cylinders in the same era did NOT automatically align and work correctly - even if one was talking about new guns and new cylinders from the factory at the same time. It was possible if one had a dozen or more spare cylinders to find one that did not take much to work, though.

However the point of this discussion was back in the day did spare cylinders have to be custom fit to the gun. The answer is "no" not then not now.

With all due respect, on what are you basing that claim? Further, have you been trained in doing revolver repair work? I don't mean to be nitpicky, but it would be good to know how you qualify this claim.

As I already mentioned, even with working the guns for so many years for the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships and having been the Team Armourer for the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team at two World Championships where so many original revolvers are used - I have only been able to try swapping original cylinders on Colt Navy and Army Models and Remington M1858 models a small number of times. I understand it was not a large enough sample to be scientific, but in less than a couple of dozen attempts, the cylinders did not swap well enough to work properly without adjustments.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I bought a spare cylinder for my 58 Remington Pietta and it drops right in and functons prefectly but it shoots to a different point of impact with the same load that is well centered with the original cylinder.This means alignment is different which is a common problem with drop in cylinders.
Range rods are alright for approximate misalignment checking but are not really all that accurate for perfect alignment which very few production guns of any make have. That requires line boring which is only found in very high end custom or semi-custom guns.
Actually you can pick up misalignment with your eye and a good goose neck auto lamp that a range rod will not detect.
This gun was bought in the late 80's.

I agree that line boring is the most precise way to align bores to cylinders. Excellent point.

I was also taught to check for misalignment by eye as you mentioned in the 70's. In the 80's when I graduated the S&W Revolver Armorer's Academy, we used precision alignment gages that picked up misalignments the human eye could not detect. So I had precision ground alignment gages made for the BP revolvers I worked on.

As you probably know in the 1970's, Brownells came out with their "Pull Through" Revolver Throat Chamfering Kits similar to the one linked after this paragraph. Due to the fact so many reproduction BP revolver cylinders and bores did not align well, it quickly became a common modification on them. I forget how many of them T.F. "Mulie" Ball did at each National Shoot at the NSSA Spring and Fall championships each year, but he did a whole bunch over the years.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...tools/38-45-basic-chamfering-kit-prod514.aspx

Gus

 

[M. De Land]

Generally the hand, bolt and cylinder notches will need adjusting and dressing with any production gun in stock condition and a drop in cylinder is no different.
Occasionally a ratchet will need a Berritt file trimming but this is not for the faint of heart!
All holes in a new cylinder should be plug gauged and ream adjusted to groove diameter of the barrel after it has been slugged and checked.
A cylinder can have some misalignment and be very accurate if all the other chambers are identical and it does not shave lead.
Actually it is quite amazing how accurate revolvers are as few have perfect alignment.
Also in sold frame guns like the 58 Remington the barrel will often be choked under the threads where it goes through the frame. This should be lapped out before the chambers are reamed to groove diameter as checked by a lead slug.

 

[M. De Land]

Good stuff Gus,I can tell you have done this kind of work. I have one of those chamfer/reamer kits from Brownells and have used it a bunch for muzzle crowns and throat/cone chamfers.
Which do you feel is better for cone angle with round balls, 8 degree, 11 or something else?

 

[pargent]

It cost more to have a spare cylinder made and fitted to your Colt than it did to buy another gun . :blah:

 

[Artificer]

M.D.

First, that was an excellent reply to Dennis A on what has to be done for swapping and working revolvers! :hatsoff:

I got a real kick out of your description on filing/cutting ratchets as well. Even though I had loads more experience with precision hand filing when I attended the S&W Revolver course than most of the other students due to me being a NM Armorer, I was real faint of heart when we first started filing ratchets. :haha:

Most of the NSSA revolver shooters I knew (and that was quite a lot over the years) preferred the 18 degree and I think T.F. "Mulie" Ball also had a 22 degree chamfering tool if I remember correctly, but my memory may not be fully accurate in that regard. Since he was already set up to do that work and I was trying to buy tools and gauges for guns I worked on more commonly, I usually sent shooters to him to have it done at the National Shoots. I also bought parts for the "full size" Remingtons that came out in the 80's from him when I needed them. In return "Mulie" and others sent the guys who wanted trigger jobs on original and reproduction Smith Carbines and rifle muskets to me.

Gus

 

[denster]

I have been working on firearms both modern and reproduction for nearly 50years. I am retired law enforcement with a second trade as a precision machinist. I was also a practicing gunsmith for several years for the local gun shop.

MD you did not answer my question. The hand and the bolt are not a part of the cylinder the notches are and can be repaired if damaged but not adjusted.

We have done a great job of hijacking Zonies thread which dealt only with a historical reference to a pony express rider carrying spare loaded cylinders. I was only responding to those who claimed that a spare cylinder would have to have been fitted specifically to an individual gun for it to work and would have cost as much as the gun.

One more time. The cylinder was not a fitted part and if your weapon was in time with the cylinder it came with another from the same make and model would work fine. Yes modern reproductions can benefit from tweaking the hand and the bolt but those are not a part of the cylinder. The cylinder throats can be reamed to grove diameter but I never found this to be much benefit.

By the way the tool you show had nothing to do with cylinder throats. It is used to adjust the forcing cone, square off the back of the barrel and chamfer the muzzle. Very handy with early reproductions that sometimes had no forcing cones.

Yes there is always some degree of misalignment with production revolvers then and now. It is called tolerances.

 

[pargent]

The replies are to say that the (primary documentation is BS )for THE LAST TIME one cannot just simply swap out cylinders on ORIGINAL Colt Revolvers ,original records and surviving letters of order show this ,the only time Colt ever supplied an extra cylinder was on special order (all the people placing the orders wanted a replacement cylinder in case of the original cylinder bursting ).The cost involved in this request was more then purchasing a second revolver. The process of assembling a revolver is selection of parts which will best go together an then assemble the collection of parts with hand fitting of parts , after the timing is completed then those parts will only fit correctly in that gun, now when an order comes for a spare cylinder a ruffed out cylinder was selected and was then labourisly hand fitted to that gun ,the ratchets were hand timed the bores lapped to suite and notches cut and the list goes on .This theory only come to light after the release of spagetti westerns .

 

[denster]

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Sorry but that is the only way to put it.

 

[Artificer]

Actually, you are indeed correct about the original documentation.

When one has knowledge of working enough original cap and ball revolvers, especially Colts, experience shows it agrees completely with the original documentation that casual swapping of cylinders usually does not result in the swapped/replacement cylinder timing and working correctly without modifications/tuning.

Gus