Carrying Extra Cylinders for a C&B Pistol

[Artificer]

Yes, I asked for you to reference the pages and actual words because after having read the booklet, I can easily see you are making assumptions and conclusions that are not in the booklet.

Do you really believe all those claims to PERFECTION and other unsupported claims made in that booklet?

I can also see you have never been trained by Colt or S&W in one of their Armorers Courses or you would realize there is a lot of hand fitting of parts done by the assemblers on the plant floor and well over a century after this time period, when the level of accuracy of machine manufacture was far ahead of 1855.

What I see is you try to rebuff and minimize or ignore discussion by people more knowledgeable than you on actually working the original revolvers.

What I also see is that you ignore the fact that Colt never claimed in advertising that cylinders could be easily swapped with no hand fitting in the time period or when it would have been greatly in the Company's interest to do so less than a decade after this booklet was published.

Gus

 

[denster]

As I stated in an earlier post my second profession, outside of law enforcement, was as a precision machinist. I am well aware that the accuracy that Colt claims was well within the ability of the machine tools of that period.
I am also aware that of the three major assemblies ie: frame, barrel and cylinder. The cylinder is by far the easiest to accurately reproduce.
Since you are so well trained as a S&W armorer you still have not answered an earlier question. You claim that you have the ability to fit and tune a cylinder to a Colt percussion revolver. Once again what on the cylinder itself would you alter to make it fit?
Oh yes! Go back and re-read the booklet I did not quote anything out of context.

 

[Artificer]

I guess you missed this, eh? Just one example.

Page 31,

"Here by the means of gauges, but chiefly by the practiced eye of the Superintendant, each separate article is examined, and rejected if in the slightest degree faulty."

As a precision machinist, you REALLY don't believe that, do you??

Once again you mention no training in fitting revolvers at a factory, so you have no idea how much hand fitting is required.

I believe M.D. already mentioned fitting the bolt to the cylinder, fitting the hand to the ratchet and filing ratchets as needed to fit the cylinder to which I concurred. One must also ensure the cylinder rotates properly on the base pin when the barrel and wedge are attached, etc., etc. etc. This is the last time I will mention it.

Now, once again I ask, do you actually believe the stated levels of PERFECTION mentioned in that text?

Gus

 

[denster]

A couple of things and I am done. Yes I believe that mis-machined parts were scrapped. They would not work and little could be done to correct them.
You have exposed yourself as not really understanding how single action revolvers work. You do not ever file on ratchets to fit them to a single action percussion revolver. You mention the hand and the bolt and those are the two components that govern timing. They are not a part of the cylinder. I have fit many many of them over the years in percussion revolvers and cartridge revolvers.

 

[Artificer]

I see you won't answer the question when asked twice. Very well. That tells me a lot.

You state I am exposed when you have had no training at a factory or other places where original or modern revolvers indeed were hand fitted by the assemblers.

You stated I didn't read the text when it is obvious I did by the way I have pulled quotes from it.

Very well.

Gus

 

[M. De Land]

That was indeed true , on many of the open tops until the pins get nibbed off from use.
At that point, hammer down on the empty chamber or new cylinder was the only safe bet.
As to occasionally needing to trim up a ratchet with a Barrette file , I have such a gun, an 1862 Navy Arms police that I picked up cheap because it would not hand up the chamber on one ratchet tooth.
Magnified examination revealed a tooth that had been improperly cut from the factory and was remedied with a bit of file trimming and "felt" into final index.
This is a prime example of what should have been done at the factory and why all parts need fitting and not just assembly.
My thought was that the cylinder had been dropped on a concrete floor and the tooth dinged but no indication of that could be detected.
Optivisor inspection showed the top of the tooth was not radius-ed correctly and would not allow the hand nose to rotate around while lifting the cylinder to bolt drop.
A comparison to another cylinder and a few file strokes remedied the problem.
All chambers now index to bolt drop with a bit of thumb drag on the cylinder, with no bind at the end of the stroke, indicating proper hand fit.
This gun was assembled at the factory from a bin of parts that apparently had some tolerance trouble and all chamber lifts were apparently not checked.
I prefer double tooth hand and ratchet configurations to single.
ON that score it should be pointed out that in either case hand thickness and hand mortice width and condition in the frame is often as important as is it's length.

 

[Poor Private]

This is for all. A lot of what is being stated is based on what would be logical. It seems to me that logical or not, what ought to be considered is documented evidence. Are there any records that Colt manufactured only cylinders to be sold as back ups? If they did, fine, then back up cylinders were used. On the other hand if Colt did not manufacture and sell back up cylinders then the only way to get one would be out of a scrap or damaged gun.
It pays to remember that combustible cartridges were made and used and pretty fast to reload. From my readings so far, I have found very little evidence that the practice of carrying a spare cylinder was used. Some of the Confederate cavalry troops loaded up with 6 revolvers, seems like a lot of weight if instead they could have just used the cylinders.
On the racket teeth, my thinking is if you didn't have a good match the parts might start to wear different, if you didn't do much shooting, then it likely wouldn't make a difference. On the burred ratchet tooth I had- a few file strokes fixed the problem, still, it seemed like some sort of manufacturing flaw however that was a modern clone- not an original.
In any event, I think the issue at hand is how common or uncommon was it back during the time to carry a spare cylinder? We have a couple of references so it is pc, the issue is how common was it? I'm trying to recall if I did or did not ever see any case set of Colt revolvers with a compartment in the case for a spare cylinder. I might have but I'm not certain.

I sure wish I could find where I seen it, I think it was on a civil war forum. They had the prices listed from the military (civil war period) for cost of weapons this included the cost of cylinders for colt revolvers. Wether as replacements or lost or damaged cylinders, or to be used as extras it doesnt say. Guess I will have to go find it.

 

[Artificer]

I imagine the reference was to "Ordnance and Ordnance Stores Quarterly or Annual Returns" or "Ordnance Warrants." These lists deal with:

A. How many REPAIR parts of each type are allowed per so many muskets, carbines, revolvers, swords, etc.

B.The costs of the REPAIR parts (per type of part) and most likely that is the information someone posted and you remember?

Other information and reports on parts had to do with parts taken from broken/damaged guns and what condition those parts were in, whether serviceable or unserviceable and the unserviceable parts were to be turned in for scrap steel, iron, brass, etc.

Gus

 

[pargent]

I can not see the point of arguing with these people any more the case is quite simple in every way yet unable to convince the vast majority, some on this topic who should know better are for some reason stupified to all reason and facts , now if you will excuse me I have to go and load
the spare barrels for my Bess .


FYI interchangeable DOES NOT mean drop in

 

[crockett]

Well I started out thinking cylinder changes were common because a lot of replicas are available with spare cylinders, then I switched my thinking to cylinder changes being uncommon to never based on no documentation I could find. Now it seems there IS documented evidence that cylinder changes were done. I'm still wondering what was the source of the extra cylinders? It appears a very few might have been supplied by Colt in a boxed set of sorts. Right now my thoughts are that most of the spare cylinders might have been from damaged revolvers- the cylinders were saved and used. BUT- that's just a guess. My mind is open.