Carrying Extra Cylinders for a C&B Pistol

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I'll ask the same thing of you that I asked of MD. Exactly what part of the cylinder itself do you modify or tune to get it to time/work correctly?
If the originals that you attempted to swap cylinders in were correctly timed with their original cylinder then replacement cylinders machined to the same dimensions would also be correctly timed. If the originals were out of time then a replacement cylinder would not correct that.
You don't by any chance believe that the wedge on Colt open tops is used to adjust barrel cylinder gap do you?
 
I know very little about Colts in the 1800s but, I do know that I have 3 Pietta 1851 44s, 1 Pietta 1860 and 5 extra cylinders that Aren't labled for the original gun and all fire just fine no matter which gun they are on. I also have 2 Pietta 1858s and 4 extra cylinders that interchange. I also have 3 ROAs, one 45 Colt conversion and 1 extra cylinder and all fit each other. I have 2 Pietta 36 Cal. One an 1851 Navy (bought in 1992) and the other an 1861 Army (from 1981) and I have shot the 1851 cylinder in the Army with zero problems. Now you "Experts" can argue that they won't be as accurate as they would be with a tunes gun but REALLY, I'm having fun with a black powder revolver that makes me feel good with a 2" group at 25 yards.
Time to stop arguing and go shooting! :surrender:
 
There was not the level of precision machining in 1851 -60 that there was even 40 years later.

Here are reasons why the original cylinders don't swap out without fitting on original Colt M1851's.


Variances in the receiver window for the bolt.

Variances in the bolt itself, though this was a fitted part.

Variances in the location of the cylinder notches for the bolt.

Variances in the ratchets.

Variances in the receiver window for the hand and spring.

Variances in the length of the hand (including the variations of the location of the hole in the hammer for the stud on the hand and spring) and yes that was a fitted part along with the ratchet notches. It is easy to see that when you look at enough original guns.

Variances in the diameter of the cylinder base pin on the receiver.

Variances in the hole size in the cylinder for the cylinder base pin. Some original cylinders will not go on other original cylinder base pins at all or have way too much friction to rotate/work properly.

Variances in the window in the cylinder base pin for the wedge and Variances in the width of the wedge and Variances in the length of the cylinders. When swapping original cylinders between revolvers, this can lead to the cylinder dragging on the rear of the barrel.

Some of these variances don't even require the precision of calibrated micrometers to identify and can be identified with a calibrated set of dial calipers. Of course some of these variances can not be measured with micrometers, such as location of windows for example.

Right off the top of my head, that is all I can think of right now.

BTW, in 1984 when I was a student at the S&W Revolver Course, there were four large trays of different size/tolerance hands that were used for the M66’s we built. We had to find the size that best fit the receivers and cylinders. Then we had to file/fit the ratchets to the cylinders after the hands were fitted. So even though the Smith was a different design revolver, we were hand fitting hands and ratchets 134 years after the M1851 Colt came out, because the M66 was still basically a 19th century design. This was exactly the same thing that was done by the S&W employees who fitted/assembled revolvers on the factory floor then, BTW.
Gus
 
Dicky Dalton said:
I know very little about Colts in the 1800s but, I do know that I have 3 Pietta 1851 44s, 1 Pietta 1860 and 5 extra cylinders that Aren't labled for the original gun and all fire just fine no matter which gun they are on. I also have 2 Pietta 1858s and 4 extra cylinders that interchange. I also have 3 ROAs, one 45 Colt conversion and 1 extra cylinder and all fit each other. I have 2 Pietta 36 Cal. One an 1851 Navy (bought in 1992) and the other an 1861 Army (from 1981) and I have shot the 1851 cylinder in the Army with zero problems. Now you "Experts" can argue that they won't be as accurate as they would be with a tunes gun but REALLY, I'm having fun with a black powder revolver that makes me feel good with a 2" group at 25 yards.
Time to stop arguing and go shooting! :surrender:
We need a like/agree button for posts! I totally agree/like with this post. See my above post.
 
Well here's what I would ask....if they are NOT able to interchange why do you see the advertisements for an extra cylinder for many many cap n ball revolvers on so many websites? I doubt they made a few for every gun "just in case" the owner orders it? Seems the manufacturers feel that it can be done?

I have but one extra for my ROA which was sent for service (warranty) and was returned with a free spare. I guess they could have taken the time to fit it but if so that was a heck of alot better customer service than even the free extra??
 
Seems like a tempest in a teapot to me, mountains out of mole hills, fun for typists and yawns for shootists. The "t'aint so" arguments totally negate the fitting that could be done by any decent gun butcher on the frontier.

The arguments against horseback cylinder changes and even reloads overlook one thing.... Actually a pair of things.... Those reins in your hands. A turn away from the action and a hearty WHOA solves all. A guy's gun runs empty, is he going to stay in the thick of it and spit at his enemy? Heck no.
 
BrownBear said:
Seems like a tempest in a teapot to me, mountains out of mole hills, fun for typists and yawns for shootists. The "t'aint so" arguments totally negate the fitting that could be done by any decent gun butcher on the frontier.

The arguments against horseback cylinder changes and even reloads overlook one thing.... Actually a pair of things.... Those reins in your hands. A turn away from the action and a hearty WHOA solves all. A guy's gun runs empty, is he going to stay in the thick of it and spit at his enemy? Heck no.
I like this post.
 
I have never seen so much baloney in one post. Even at that you didn't answer my questions.
By the 1850s machining tolerances were pretty damn good for that matter.
By the way there are only two reasons to get a file near a cylinder ratchet. One is to lightly remove a burr the other is to remove a nick from damage.
It might interest you to know that S&W fits their cylinder ratchets with a lever activated single point hand tool through the hand window. Interesting to watch them do it they can cut the entire ratchet in under thirty seconds.

I'm with Dickey, this is getting boring, lets go shooting.
 
A couple of thoughts...

1)Would a fella with a set of hand tools and a working knowledge of machines be able to take an extra cylinder and work on it to make it function properly? Mr. Colts factory was not the only place where men knowledgeable about mechanics were at.

2) Maybe the extra cylinders were a little out of whack, and the guy with the pistol knew that and was working under the assumption if he had to trade cylinders that he would have to close range for an effective shot? I would rather have a gun that is only good a few feet away than no gun at all...
 
Dicky Dalton said:
I know very little about Colts in the 1800s but, I do know that I have 3 Pietta 1851 44s, 1 Pietta 1860 and 5 extra cylinders that Aren't labled for the original gun and all fire just fine no matter which gun they are on. I also have 2 Pietta 1858s and 4 extra cylinders that interchange. I also have 3 ROAs, one 45 Colt conversion and 1 extra cylinder and all fit each other. I have 2 Pietta 36 Cal. One an 1851 Navy (bought in 1992) and the other an 1861 Army (from 1981) and I have shot the 1851 cylinder in the Army with zero problems. Now you "Experts" can argue that they won't be as accurate as they would be with a tunes gun but REALLY, I'm having fun with a black powder revolver that makes me feel good with a 2" group at 25 yards.
Time to stop arguing and go shooting! :surrender:

I agree!

Far from the Expert Category others appear to occupy, I have a small assembly of cap & ball revolvers including 2 .44 Remingtons, 2 1860 Colts, a buncha other Colt and Remington revolvers, including a Dragoon, and an ROA. I've only been at it since the late 60's, so I'm obviously a newcomer from all the expert accounts I've been reading.

I don't interchange any cylinders on the Colts, but do have several .44 Remington cylinders obtained from various sources over time that fit & function just fine. All cylinders shoot to same POI, and although they are all marked, I don't keep strict account of which one belong in which revolver. Going thru all the fancy gauging and measurement calisthenics seems to be unnecessary to me. I don't care about spreadsheets of dimensions, but I do care about ball placement on target. All this other bloviating and expelling of hot air is akin to doing an autopsy on your cat to see what makes it purr, you can spend a lot of time trying to quantify something, but will still not have an answer that is truly relevant to the bottom line.

My bottom line is revolver performance, and not protracted measuring and bickering about who is the best and brightest quantifier of gun dimensions. Between 50' and 25 yards, I'm happy to produce a large raggedy hole on the target. For longer distances, I use a rifle.
 
And I will respond to that post by saying it is obvious you have never worked many original Colt revolvers.

And

I was trained at the S&W Factory over 30 years ago. I would hope they have come up with some improvements from that time.

Gus
 
As was said by some of you, this deals with a Pony Express rider carrying spare cylinders for his Colt revolver.

I might add, the rider was not looking for precision target shooting or velvet smooth operating handgun. All he needed was a pistol that could be rapidly reloaded for use against Indians armed mainly with bows and arrows.
If the cylinder would fit the cylinder pin and would rotate when the barrel was installed that would be good enough.

Some of you jumped to the conclusion he would be reloading and shooting while his pony was running over hill and dale. I think this is stretching it a bit.

IMO, only in the grade B Western's did people shoot their handguns from the saddle of a running horse. (Having covered many miles on the back of a horse at a trot, canter and run I can assure you its not a steady place to be and IMO, only a madman would even try to shoot at something behind him. It would be a total waste of ammunition.)

More than likely he would have dismounted and taken refuge in some place of concealment and be fighting a defensive fight if the situation needed shooting.

More information about precision machining in the 1850's:
In 1772, James Watt produced a bench mounted screw type micrometer capable of measuring to thousandths of an inch.

In 1848 Jean Palmer created a hand held micrometer capable of measuring to less than one thousandth of an inch.

In 1851 John R. Brown (think Brown & Sharpe) invented the modern vernier caliper which measured to less than one thousandth of an inch.

Large companies general machinists did not have to own or even know how to use these measuring gages to produce very accurately machined parts.
All they needed were "go" and "no go" gages for the feature they were machining.

Go and no go gages are made to measure the maximum and minimum size of something. For a hole, the go gage is a cylindrical plug made to the smallest hole size. It must always go into the hole. The "no go" gage is made at the maximum hole size. It should never go into the machined hole.

These "go" and "no go" gages could easily be made by the company tool and gage maker who had the access and knowledge to use the company supplied precision measuring tools.

While I have no doubt that some of the existing revolvers have some parts which don't interchange easily I can't believe most of the cylinders for Colts revolvers wouldn't assemble with the receiver without hand fitting.

Would the chambers and barrel line up exactly right is a different cylinder was installed? Probably not for shooting with target accuracy but I'm sure they would be good enough for killing someone at point blank range.
 
Nice recap, Zonie. For all of the vitriol, this has been an interesting thread to read. Thanks for raising the topic!

Sincerely

:thumbsup:
 
No vitriol hear,just sharing ideas and opinions on revolver craft.
On revolver reloading while on horse back, I believe what Calvary units did in the Civil War was charge through a troop, shooting dry in the fray, galloping out of range to reload and regroup for another charge through.
This would be very effective at breaking up infantry cohesion and instilling panic.
The sabers where probably used to cut their way out after the revolvers and carbines were dry.
I suspect the spare cylinders were employed much the same by Pony express riders that had to fort up if their mount was disabled or killed.
 
BrownBear said:
Seems like a tempest in a teapot to me, mountains out of mole hills, fun for typists and yawns for shootists. The "t'aint so" arguments totally negate the fitting that could be done by any decent gun butcher on the frontier.

The arguments against horseback cylinder changes and even reloads overlook one thing.... Actually a pair of things.... Those reins in your hands. A turn away from the action and a hearty WHOA solves all. A guy's gun runs empty, is he going to stay in the thick of it and spit at his enemy? Heck no.

That about covers me, lol, a Shootist! I can't believe that all of the Keyboard Commandos chimed-in. Brown Bear & others must be getting bored because I sure am. TIME TO START SHOOTING!

Dave
Shootist
 
Perhaps it is time for a different tack. And this time I suggest staying in or immediately after the period and with the actual guns of the period ”“ NOT replica guns made 150 years later which has nothing to do with the subject.


1. Fact: Colt had the lion’s share of the Revolver market in the 1850’s and especially out west.

2. Fact: Colt advertised their Revolvers for their firepower and their reliability and accuracy, but with no special claims for special target or competition accuracy. (There were target pistols of that time that easily were more accurate than the Colt for target and competition shooting and Colt knew it.)

3. Fact: Colt did advertise and fit spare cylinders to Colt 1851 revolvers that cost almost as much or more as a complete new gun in the 1850’s.

4. Fact: Colt did NOT advertise that spare cylinders could easily be swapped for additional firepower.

Comment: This would have been a HUGE advertising and sales advantage IF it were true. Though advertising this may not have been important in the 1850’s, there is no doubt Colt would have used this as a selling point in the 1860’s during the Civil War (and after) when they had competition from Remington and other Revolvers. So WHERE is the evidence Colt advertised easy swapping of cylinders for even more firepower during the War and after??!! Uh, OH!!!

5. Fact: We have one period account of a Pony Express Rider talking about having two spare cylinders for his Colt.

Comment: How many other period accounts do we have? Oh, I know a lot of authors writing about the Pony Express, AFTER their period, mention carrying spare cylinders as if it was common, but where is the original period document supporting evidence? If it was common then that means the Company provided the guns and though there may not be documented evidence to support that as fact, there seems to be little disagreement that most of the guns were provided by the Company.

Comment: If we accept that spare cylinders were issued at least for a while and we DO have period documents that talked in the later period of stripping down the Riders’ Armaments to just one Revolver and NO mention of spare cylinders, then where did those spare cylinders come from ( I mean the suppliers to the company)? How were they issued to the Riders? How often, if at all, were those spare cylinders actually used? This is where the real conjecture and assumptions and myths and fables begin.

Is there documentation from Colt records that the agents of the company purchased revolvers through distributors that had factory fitted spare cylinders? I realize the problem here is there was a huge fire at Colt in 1864 when so many of the early records were destroyed. If we use Occam’s Razor (The principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but””in the absence of certainty””the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.) Then this is the most likely way the Pony Express Colt’s had spare cylinders factory fitted and there would be no discussion that they fit and worked correctly. This would have kept down on weight of carrying spare pistols and the cylinders would function correctly. Since the company paid the Riders a MUCH higher wage than expected even for the dangers involved and a HUGE salary for the time period, it is not unreasonable to expect they spent extra money to ensure the Rider’s safety while keeping weight down.

OK, so what if they did not have factory fitted spare cylinders? It is entirely reasonable to assume someone checked and ensured the spare cylinders fit and functioned in the Revolvers before they were issued to the Riders. So the next simplest method is the Company had an agreement with the Gun Suppliers that the spare cylinders would be checked and fitted to the Revolvers by Gunsmiths in the larger towns or cities from whence the guns were shipped to the Company. That would have been plain “Good Business Practice” by Gun Distributors/Suppliers on a good size order and with hopes of selling more to the Company. Also, really now, who would have paid for guns that did not work or function properly for such an enterprise and that included the spare cylinders fit to the guns? OR if the guns did not work properly when received even WITH the spare cylinders, there would have been H&LL to pay because they cost so much and almost certainly there would have been records or accounts of that came down through history.

The unproven theory that unfitted spare cylinders were supplied in random fashion in hopes they would work correctly is the furthest down the list of realistic probabilities. This because Colt supplied factory fitted cylinders and never advertised easy replacement of their cylinders only one to three years after the end of the Pony Express when it would have been hugely in their financial favor to have done so during the Civil War and after, IF TRUE.

For more information about easy swapping of non factory fitted or gunsmith fitted cylinders, we should look to the Civil War. IF there were little or few problems of swapping cylinders without fitting, then there certainly should have been documented examples of it from that War when such a huge amounts of documents and letters are still extant. So WHERE ARE THEY??!! Uh, OH, again.

Now I have to admit I was a little surprised at this years ago and especially for Remington Revolvers where it is really easy to remove and replace the cylinder from the revolver, especially compared with the Colt M1851 or M1860. If there was a Civil War Period Revolver where carrying extra cylinders made the most sense, it would have been the Remington for this reason. The Company of Military Historians even included drawings of possible spare cylinder pouches that held one or two cylinders for Navy use. However, since those books came out, it has been shown those items were never purchased or issued. The Soldiers who REALLY could have used a belt pouch carrying one or two spare cylinders were Company Grade Infantry Officers, IF such swapping of cylinders was so easy. There are PLENTY of records of both Union and Confederate Company Grade Officers writing home or other places to order swords and pistols and all sorts of items; and yet, no recorded mention of them asking for spare cylinders. This even later in the war when the huge rush to supply arms to the troops had ebbed and spare cylinders could have been more readily provided at least to Union Officers. IF spare cylinders were so easy to fit, there is no doubt that there would be examples of those Officers writing and ordering or asking for them. So where are they? Uh, OH, again.

I know I won’t convince people who have little knowledge of working on authentic/original period revolvers or those who just want to believe what they will. That’s fine. I hope this post will be considered by those with an open mind and are concerned with historic accuracy.

Gus
 
"The unproven theory that unfitted spare cylinders were supplied in random fashion in hopes they would work correctly is the furthest down the list of realistic probabilities."

Were they chiseling cylinders out of blocks of metal?
 
Frankly I don't care if your bored or not because I'm still interested.
Personally I enjoy the discussion and exchange of different ideas and opinions and don't feel threatened in the least about contrary notion. :wink:
I think your opinion made a lot of sense Gus!
 
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