Do you think it would be ok to cast round balls for a smooth bore with a 50% pure lead and 50% wheel weight mix to harden it more? I noticed my 75 cal pure soft lead balls get dings and dents really easy and does this surface damage effect accuracy?
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Leonredbeard
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10guage,
I would not think that the dings would give you any problem with accuracy. I am assuming that you are shooting a smoothbore. Plenty of keyboard action has been spilled over whether intentionally creating a dimpled surface on roundballs makes them fly truer, as in golfballs.
Even so, if you are shooting a smoothbore, you can make your lead as hard as you want. Just make sure your ball is small enough so you can use a patch thick enough so the patch will compress. Have fun.
volatpluvia
I would not think that the dings would give you any problem with accuracy. I am assuming that you are shooting a smoothbore. Plenty of keyboard action has been spilled over whether intentionally creating a dimpled surface on roundballs makes them fly truer, as in golfballs.
Even so, if you are shooting a smoothbore, you can make your lead as hard as you want. Just make sure your ball is small enough so you can use a patch thick enough so the patch will compress. Have fun.
volatpluvia
In my .751 dia. bore I'm using the .715 ball mold and a thicker (0.027ish) denum patch.
I've used pure wheel weights for balls before and had no issues whatsoever. Seem to start just a bit snugger, that's all.
Have trouble getting them to cast as nice as lead. But they seem to fly well enough. Work fine on targets. Still prefer pure lead when available and for hunting though to be absolutely honest. Then again, can't say it really seems to matter. A 3/4" hole is a 3/4" hole in game.
I've used pure wheel weights for balls before and had no issues whatsoever. Seem to start just a bit snugger, that's all.
Have trouble getting them to cast as nice as lead. But they seem to fly well enough. Work fine on targets. Still prefer pure lead when available and for hunting though to be absolutely honest. Then again, can't say it really seems to matter. A 3/4" hole is a 3/4" hole in game.
I dont patch. I put an 1/8" OP wad .735 ball and a thin OS wad. My bore will not allow for a patch with a .735 ball, I would have to use a .715 ball to use a patch in my bore. When I find a fair priced used Lyman .715 RB mould I will buy it.
Leonredbeard
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Ah, well, 10gauge,
If that shoots well I don't see that you have a problem. :grin: Shoot all wheelweights if you want. :v
volatpluvia
If that shoots well I don't see that you have a problem. :grin: Shoot all wheelweights if you want. :v
volatpluvia
Many Klatch
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10 Guage
I have upon occasion shot ball bearings out of my smoothbore. Didn't hurt a thing, so an extra hard lead alloy won't be a problem.
The dings and scratches won't make any difference in your shooting. Think about it, you are shooting off hand, no rear sight (I assume), no rifling. At 25 yards you can probably get a cloverleaf with 5 shots. At 50 yards you should be able to keep them on a small paper plate. At 75 yards you should be able to hit a sheet of typing paper. Beyond that it's all luck.
Many Klatch
I have upon occasion shot ball bearings out of my smoothbore. Didn't hurt a thing, so an extra hard lead alloy won't be a problem.
The dings and scratches won't make any difference in your shooting. Think about it, you are shooting off hand, no rear sight (I assume), no rifling. At 25 yards you can probably get a cloverleaf with 5 shots. At 50 yards you should be able to keep them on a small paper plate. At 75 yards you should be able to hit a sheet of typing paper. Beyond that it's all luck.
Many Klatch
I have been making 6" groups off a rest at 50 yds and so I'm really tempted to take it out this October on my cow elk hunt. My original plan was to use my 50cal TC Hawken with a 370gr Maxi but at a water hole the elk come in really close around 25 yds. If I decide to walk the Timber the shots would be around 50-100 yds. So I think that I'll take both weapons on my hunt, I'll use the Bess in a ground blind at the water holes and the Hawken if I decide to walk the timber.
So what do you guys think pure lead for cow elk, or a harder mix of lead?
So what do you guys think pure lead for cow elk, or a harder mix of lead?
paulvallandigham
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At close range, the pure ball will deliver the goods. Remember the diameter of that ball, as well as the WEIGHT. At close range it would be difficult keeping that ball inside the animal at anything but a frontal shot that goes from North to South on an Elk. The diameter insures that a lot of tissue damage is going to occur, and the wound will not be closed by flesh or hair. The weight insures that it will penetrate deeply. On a broadside shot, The ball can be expected to go completely through an Elk, leaving both entrance and exit wounds that are 3/4 inch or greater. Blood pressure will drop dramatically, and an Elk is just not going very far with that kind of wound.
Spend your time working on making the most accurate shot you can with your Bess, and if the opportunity presents itself, you will take home meat. Best luck to you. :hatsoff:
Spend your time working on making the most accurate shot you can with your Bess, and if the opportunity presents itself, you will take home meat. Best luck to you. :hatsoff:
I just cant stop thinking of a mule deer that I shot years ago with a 45-70 Marlin that I had loaded with a 300 gr jacketed hollow point at 2000 fps. I hit the deer in the neck at about 100 yds and dropped it instantly but the bullet never made it threw the neck it was fetched up against the hide on the other side. When I recovered the bullet it was as flat as a quarter and the copper jacket held surprisingly. The neck of the deer measured 10" across, now 10"s is not that much penetration and so I never used that load again. I have to admit the bullet did penetrate threw the vertebrae bone. So this event is why I'm sceptical about pure soft lead penetration and big bones.
paulvallandigham
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Your jacketed Hollow point performed as advertised. You did not indicate the distance from you to the deer at the shot, but If you were shooting that bullet at that velocity at any range under 50 yards, I am amazed that the bullet stayed together after taking out that vertebrae. If the bullet had been going at a slower velocity, it probably would have exited the deer's neck.
With soft lead, the lead flows, slowly, (unless its hollowpointed), giving time for much greater penetration( due to the heavy weight of the bullet or ball) Remember, the bullet or ball is spinning out of a rifle, so that it going through flesh and bone like a high speed drill. Out of a smoothbore, the ball will not spin, or rotate, as there was nothing in the barrel to cause it to rotate.
On your rifle bullet, the bullet was not only affected by high velocity, but it also was spinning fast, and that is the force the bullet-maker relies on to cause the Hollow Point Jacket to open up quickly, slowing the forward motion of the bullet, and expanding the bullet to transfer more energy to the game. A secondary result of these changes is that the bullet slows when it hits bone or hard tissues, as if someone hit the BRAKES.
Compare your observations to my own as a kid. We fired a .45-70 405 grain cast bullet into an elmwood stump at about 10 feet. Velocity was about 1200 fps. The bullet was cast, round nosed. It traveled through about 13 inches of tough wood, never expanding, but losing lead off the nose and sides of the bullet. The bullet we dug out of the stump was .43 caliber, and about an 1/8" shorter. You could still clearly see the grease grooves, although no grease was left in the grooves, and they were very shallow markings on the smaller diameter bullet.
If I shot that same bullet today, out of my Marlin, at a much higher velocity, even it would expand, although not as much as a hollowpoint bullet, cast, or jacketed. I have a mold for the old Lyman 330 grain HP Gould design bullet, just for loading up rounds for deer sized game. Its basically the company's 350 grain bullet, with a long hollow point hole in the top. It does expand in flesh. The 350 grain model makes a great Elk bullet, because it does not expand as much, if at all, at the ranges where Elk are often taken. It shoots a lot flatter than the heavier bullets, tho'.
I hope that helps you understand these differences. One of the problems people have with shooting MLers for hunting, is that, like most of us, you start shooting and hunting with modern cartridge guns, shooting jacketed bullets. You have not read the literature about how the early jacketed bullets performed so poorly, not expanding when they were suppose to. You live in and era when the bullet makers are now producing jacketed bullets that do amazing things over a wide range of velocities.
It was not always that way. In the early days, the manufacturers were trying to deliver the same performance hunters were used to getting from the CAST bullets, and pure lead balls.
Shooting a SMOOTHBORE with a pure lead ball, then, just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. If you have been poisoned by some of the naysayers- Toby Bridges is the worst-- about RBs effectiveness, and have no personal experience, you come to this sport thinking we must be out of our minds, or are a cruel and heartless bunch of bloodthirsty torturers to be hunting deer with cast RBs.
The pure lead ball( and pure lead cast " shotgun " slugs) DOES expand in flesh, does transfer shock and energy to the game, and is responsible for many one shot, drop-them-in-their-tracks kills, when the hunter accurately places the ball in the heart/lung area of a deer's body. And IT DOES IT AT MUCH LOWER VELOCITIES than can a jacketed hollow point. Some modern hunters used high velocity jacketed bullets believing that hitting a deer anywhere will result in a quick kill. We know better, and pick our shots. We don't have 3-5 back up shots to spray at a deer. And because we shoot guns with traditional open sights, we expect to have to take shots that are closer than 100 yards, where we can be accurate with those sights. With Smoothbores, we prefer to pick shots at ranges under 50 yards. That is far less than these guns can sometimes hit a deer-sized target, with the right loads, and way short of the ball's effective range to kill game.
I load and shoot jacketed hollow points for my handguns for " social " purposes, and I know what velocity they need to be traveling to expand, and I know that at certain ranges, the bullet will cease to expand predictably, and bullet placement becomes everything. Because I am not choosing to hunt game with these loads, but merely use them for self-defense, I am not concerned about the bullet performance at longer ranges. I can still hit people at distances others consider " rifle " range, with my handguns. ( All it takes is practice). :hatsoff:
With soft lead, the lead flows, slowly, (unless its hollowpointed), giving time for much greater penetration( due to the heavy weight of the bullet or ball) Remember, the bullet or ball is spinning out of a rifle, so that it going through flesh and bone like a high speed drill. Out of a smoothbore, the ball will not spin, or rotate, as there was nothing in the barrel to cause it to rotate.
On your rifle bullet, the bullet was not only affected by high velocity, but it also was spinning fast, and that is the force the bullet-maker relies on to cause the Hollow Point Jacket to open up quickly, slowing the forward motion of the bullet, and expanding the bullet to transfer more energy to the game. A secondary result of these changes is that the bullet slows when it hits bone or hard tissues, as if someone hit the BRAKES.
Compare your observations to my own as a kid. We fired a .45-70 405 grain cast bullet into an elmwood stump at about 10 feet. Velocity was about 1200 fps. The bullet was cast, round nosed. It traveled through about 13 inches of tough wood, never expanding, but losing lead off the nose and sides of the bullet. The bullet we dug out of the stump was .43 caliber, and about an 1/8" shorter. You could still clearly see the grease grooves, although no grease was left in the grooves, and they were very shallow markings on the smaller diameter bullet.
If I shot that same bullet today, out of my Marlin, at a much higher velocity, even it would expand, although not as much as a hollowpoint bullet, cast, or jacketed. I have a mold for the old Lyman 330 grain HP Gould design bullet, just for loading up rounds for deer sized game. Its basically the company's 350 grain bullet, with a long hollow point hole in the top. It does expand in flesh. The 350 grain model makes a great Elk bullet, because it does not expand as much, if at all, at the ranges where Elk are often taken. It shoots a lot flatter than the heavier bullets, tho'.
I hope that helps you understand these differences. One of the problems people have with shooting MLers for hunting, is that, like most of us, you start shooting and hunting with modern cartridge guns, shooting jacketed bullets. You have not read the literature about how the early jacketed bullets performed so poorly, not expanding when they were suppose to. You live in and era when the bullet makers are now producing jacketed bullets that do amazing things over a wide range of velocities.
It was not always that way. In the early days, the manufacturers were trying to deliver the same performance hunters were used to getting from the CAST bullets, and pure lead balls.
Shooting a SMOOTHBORE with a pure lead ball, then, just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. If you have been poisoned by some of the naysayers- Toby Bridges is the worst-- about RBs effectiveness, and have no personal experience, you come to this sport thinking we must be out of our minds, or are a cruel and heartless bunch of bloodthirsty torturers to be hunting deer with cast RBs.
The pure lead ball( and pure lead cast " shotgun " slugs) DOES expand in flesh, does transfer shock and energy to the game, and is responsible for many one shot, drop-them-in-their-tracks kills, when the hunter accurately places the ball in the heart/lung area of a deer's body. And IT DOES IT AT MUCH LOWER VELOCITIES than can a jacketed hollow point. Some modern hunters used high velocity jacketed bullets believing that hitting a deer anywhere will result in a quick kill. We know better, and pick our shots. We don't have 3-5 back up shots to spray at a deer. And because we shoot guns with traditional open sights, we expect to have to take shots that are closer than 100 yards, where we can be accurate with those sights. With Smoothbores, we prefer to pick shots at ranges under 50 yards. That is far less than these guns can sometimes hit a deer-sized target, with the right loads, and way short of the ball's effective range to kill game.
I load and shoot jacketed hollow points for my handguns for " social " purposes, and I know what velocity they need to be traveling to expand, and I know that at certain ranges, the bullet will cease to expand predictably, and bullet placement becomes everything. Because I am not choosing to hunt game with these loads, but merely use them for self-defense, I am not concerned about the bullet performance at longer ranges. I can still hit people at distances others consider " rifle " range, with my handguns. ( All it takes is practice). :hatsoff:
Paul thank you for all that feed back. I very much agree about the high velocity of my 45-70 300grnr contributing to the over expansion issue. The shot distance was a ruff 100yds but I guess it didn't slow down the bullet enough.
The drill bit effect that you talked about does not really happen like some people think. What they hear or read is the RPM of the bullet at a very high number. But what they forget is that the bullet traveled for one minute and a long distance to achieve that RPM number. Lets say a modern rifle has 1 in 12 twist ratio. That means that the bullet will never spin more then one revolution in a 12" distance of travel. But if you do the math over one minute and distance you will come up with a ridiculously high RPM number. And that is how the misnomer of a bullet cutting like high speed drill bit is thought of.
Thanks 10 Gauge
The drill bit effect that you talked about does not really happen like some people think. What they hear or read is the RPM of the bullet at a very high number. But what they forget is that the bullet traveled for one minute and a long distance to achieve that RPM number. Lets say a modern rifle has 1 in 12 twist ratio. That means that the bullet will never spin more then one revolution in a 12" distance of travel. But if you do the math over one minute and distance you will come up with a ridiculously high RPM number. And that is how the misnomer of a bullet cutting like high speed drill bit is thought of.
Thanks 10 Gauge
Rotational velocity does not dissipate as fast as the forward velocity does. If a round begins at 1-12 @ 1500 and strikes the target at 750 the rate of twist is going to be at 1-6 approximately for the slower velocity. The rates of spin maybe a little slower because the rotational velocity does slow down. This is why some conical bullets may shoot well at shorter ranges but as the ranges increases they begin to keyhole. The ratio between the forward velocity and the rate of rotation has gotten too great and the bullet becomes unstable.
paulvallandigham
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Thank you, Runnball, for that comment.
Assuming that your rifle had the same 1:22 ROT that my Marlin has, that would mean that in that 10 inches of neck, tissue, and bone, the bullet rotated 10/22 of an arc, or Approx. 164 degree. 180 degrees would be a half turn. That rotation DOES affect that hollow point, and the very thin edge of the Copper Jacket that is on the the perimeter or edge of that hollow point. Add to that the still high velocity of that bullet at 100 yards, and you get a " drill-like " affect, no matter how you view rotation of the bullet. Perhsps thinking of the rotation to speed ratio as closer to the turns on a "wood screw" would be more appropriate than comparing it to a machine screw, as the picture of a high speed drill in action seems to raise.
It is the collapse of that forward edge of a hollow point that begins the " braking " process, and transfer of energy from the bullet to the living tissue, in the form of shock, and a larger primary wound channel, that interrupts more blood vessels along its route. It is shock to the main nervous system, and loss of blood pressure that results in rendering the animal unconscious and/or dead quickly.
There would be NO reason to have or use a hollow point bullet if these factors were NOT TRUE. :hmm: :hatsoff:
Assuming that your rifle had the same 1:22 ROT that my Marlin has, that would mean that in that 10 inches of neck, tissue, and bone, the bullet rotated 10/22 of an arc, or Approx. 164 degree. 180 degrees would be a half turn. That rotation DOES affect that hollow point, and the very thin edge of the Copper Jacket that is on the the perimeter or edge of that hollow point. Add to that the still high velocity of that bullet at 100 yards, and you get a " drill-like " affect, no matter how you view rotation of the bullet. Perhsps thinking of the rotation to speed ratio as closer to the turns on a "wood screw" would be more appropriate than comparing it to a machine screw, as the picture of a high speed drill in action seems to raise.
It is the collapse of that forward edge of a hollow point that begins the " braking " process, and transfer of energy from the bullet to the living tissue, in the form of shock, and a larger primary wound channel, that interrupts more blood vessels along its route. It is shock to the main nervous system, and loss of blood pressure that results in rendering the animal unconscious and/or dead quickly.
There would be NO reason to have or use a hollow point bullet if these factors were NOT TRUE. :hmm: :hatsoff:
10 ga I like your plan .
I was hunting with smoothbore last fall for moose and/or black bear and a good sized black came out on the trail at 80-85 yards and was walking away from ,me at 90-95 yards he stopped when I set my hammer , I knew I would certainly hit him but passed on the shot 'cause couldn't be sure of a clean harvest.
the boiler house on a moose is alot larger than a bears and at that distance ...
with my rifle no questions asked .
good lusk on your hunt :thumbsup:
I was hunting with smoothbore last fall for moose and/or black bear and a good sized black came out on the trail at 80-85 yards and was walking away from ,me at 90-95 yards he stopped when I set my hammer , I knew I would certainly hit him but passed on the shot 'cause couldn't be sure of a clean harvest.
the boiler house on a moose is alot larger than a bears and at that distance ...
with my rifle no questions asked .
good lusk on your hunt :thumbsup:
JackAubrey
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I am certain sure to step on some toes here and this is not my intention so I humbly submit the following as merely my own opinion, which, that and $1.39 will buy you a coke.I have a Bess.And I have found within her range limitations,she is not all that terribly inaccurate.Well,yes she is, if you compare her to a modern L1A1,but we're talking subjective accuracy.Hunting accuracy.The original muskets were rather inaccurate since the barrels were hammered out on a blacksmiths' anvil,I would imagine.With our modern steels and superior design tolerances,she's well equipt for a 50 to 70 yard shot.Pure lead obturates at the point of ignition and certainly on impact with a deer adding to tissue disruption and shock producing a quicker and more humane kill.Could it be that the harder alloy ball would act as a "fmj" round?Imho,I see no great advantage to using anything but pure lead,but that's just me.Best regards,J.A.
Russ T Frizzen
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Probably the biggest cause of inaccuracy in the muskets of yore was that they used no patch. "Windage" or an undersized ball was used to allow rapid loading in a fouled bore under combat conditions. This meant that the ball sort of bounced from side to side on its journey down the bore and didn't go exactly where aimed. Aiming was made difficult in any case by the lack of a rear sight and the presence of a very crude front sight. And then there was the fact that target practice was pretty much non-existant anyway. Today, a properly loaded musket in skilled hands can do things not even imagined 200 years ago.
Russ T Frizzen
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Yup, but today we can actually hit something with the shots we fire. Volley fire was the musketry era's equivalent of "spray and pray".
