Caucasian Miquelet "Cossack" Pistol & Locks

[user 55620]

Henry Krank has a number of these for sale in very good condition from £2300ish to over £4000. I expect the shipping would be prohibitive.
This one is about £2350.

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Cyten, thank you so much for this thread. Interesting firearms from an interesting region.
I shall have to improve my lathe abilities so that I can make some of those "gajiri" powder charge containers.
And you have given me some new insight for using some of my gold leaf materials and abilities. Little bit of sizing with a fine brush, and some gentle applications of gold leaf would really enhance a few of my long rifles.
And it is easy to see where Josif Stalin got his mustache ideas from. He just needed to add some "wings"! Georgia, and the other nations in the area have a fierce history for sure.
Again - thanks. Doubt that my finances would ever allow one of these to be added to my collection of ML's, but you never know what the future might bring.

 

[TobJohn]

Most of them were created during the Russian Empire, pre-1917. Museums here were a big thing during Soviet times, as tourists (from other regions of the USSR) were interested in the different ethnographic studies. Churches on the other hand were shut down and turned into museums. The clergy/patrons did their best to take the icons and hide them from being confiscated and destroyed until they loosened up on this.

Thanks for the info! That makes sense and fits in with the “Union” part of the USSR. I know they spread factories around (I believe the SU-25 factory was/is in Georgia) but am less knowledgeable on the cultural aspects.

 

[rickystl]

Henry Krank has a number of these for sale in very good condition from £2300ish to over £4000. I expect the shipping would be prohibitive.
This one is about £2350.

Hi Frank

Not sure about the U.K., but here in the States the Caucasian and Greek guns and their accouterments have historically brought higher prices generally than their other Eastern counterparts. Not really sure the reason for this. I realized the decoration and gold inlay is attractive to many. But there is a reasonable amount of these Caucasian guns available here. Maybe there are just more collectors for these guns (?)
My Caucasian shooter, before restoration to shooting condition, still cost me some $1,400.00USD.

Rick

 

[user 55620]

Hi Rick,
Do you fire the gun now that it is restored?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Frank

Yes, I have fired the gun, but not for a couple years now. The caliber mics out to about .50 and a tad more. A .490 round ball and 10 thousands patch worked fine. I recall it shot a bit high at 25 yards. But I blame this on the front sight being a bit short - for me anyway. I I have not tried it at longer range yet. I originally bought this a few years ago at a gun show. It was missing it's ivory butt cap, all but one barrel band, the trigger inlay, and half of another inlay. Strangely, the original wood/iron ramrod was intact.
But the lock was complete (even the original flint and leather) and in good working order. Just light surface rust. The barrel is what made me want this gun the most. While all the decoration was still intact, the bore appeared to have only light surface rust. Didn't see any kinks or rough marks on the 8-groove rifling. After the gunsmith removed the breech plug to inspect the breech and thread integrity, my guess turned out to be right. Only a very slight amount of surface corrosion at the breech, which most was polished out. Threads were in good shape and provided a good fit. Note that the threads on the plug are more of a course thread than the fine threads we use today in building traditional muzzle loaders. But the plug length is about twice what we use today. So everything considered, the gunsmith gave his OK for safe shooting with normal loads of black powder. I used 55/60 grains of FFG and FFFG for the pan. The butt cap and 3 inlays were repaired using genuine walrus tusk as per many originals. The barrel bands are genuine sterling silver and look better now that they have aged.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Glad to find a place to show the Turkish Fergusson from Glenbow Museum And the unusual Russian breech loading pistol it itself part of a trio of such BLs at GlenBow These pistols had the carved addition saying Nicholous Chabelski var France . Seemingly he was a collector who got his guns out before the revolution . The Smithsonian had similar guns so marked .I at the time corresponded with the late Leonid Tarasuk . If my memory & spelling isn't too far off . might have been a sharp stamp used rather than carved . The Fergusson is made using a barrel & breach & plug ect by Durs Egg & bore London Proof s Cyten had the info on it & I might yet find my notes ex Glenbow to expand on it & the nice Moukahla given to Marshall Soult by Mourey Bey while in exile at the Marshall home they got on well It seems . Well there its hopefully sent .Not particularly clear but hopefully readable . E pics are not my forte .
Regards Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

Glad to find a place to show the Turkish Fergusson from Glenbow Museum And the unusual Russian breech loading pistol it itself part of a trio of such BLs at GlenBow These pistols had the carved addition saying Nicholous Chabelski var France . Seemingly he was a collector who got his guns out before the revolution . The Smithsonian had similar guns so marked .I at the time corresponded with the late Leonid Tarasuk . If my memory & spelling isn't too far off . might have been a sharp stamp used rather than carved . The Fergusson is made using a barrel & breach & plug ect by Durs Egg & bore London Proof s Cyten had the info on it & I might yet find my notes ex Glenbow to expand on it & the nice Moukahla given to Marshall Soult by Mourey Bey while in exile at the Marshall home they got on well It seems . Well there its hopefully sent .Not particularly clear but hopefully readable . E pics are not my forte .
Regards Rudyard





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If it was made by Durs Egg, does that mean its an actual Ferguson and not an earlier sporting gun?

 

[Rudyard]

I believe the Durs Egg was a proper English rifle that got restocked by the Ottomans whoever were involved They evidently didnt like the "Funny Shaped" English stocking . When some English gunmakers stocked up a foreign barrel & lock (refer Great British gun makers 1740 to 1790 by Neil & Back ) they might use barrel & lock but not the Turkish stocking style . All logical if you think about it . Afghan & Indian gun makers might be pleased to use an English lock but stocked in their own regional tastes .Out of local custom . Fin '
Regards Rudyard

 

[user 55620]

Hi Frank

Yes, I have fired the gun, but not for a couple years now. The caliber mics out to about .50 and a tad more. A .490 round ball and 10 thousands patch worked fine. I recall it shot a bit high at 25 yards. But I blame this on the front sight being a bit short - for me anyway. I I have not tried it at longer range yet. I originally bought this a few years ago at a gun show. It was missing it's ivory butt cap, all but one barrel band, the trigger inlay, and half of another inlay. Strangely, the original wood/iron ramrod was intact.
But the lock was complete (even the original flint and leather) and in good working order. Just light surface rust. The barrel is what made me want this gun the most. While all the decoration was still intact, the bore appeared to have only light surface rust. Didn't see any kinks or rough marks on the 8-groove rifling. After the gunsmith removed the breech plug to inspect the breech and thread integrity, my guess turned out to be right. Only a very slight amount of surface corrosion at the breech, which most was polished out. Threads were in good shape and provided a good fit. Note that the threads on the plug are more of a course thread than the fine threads we use today in building traditional muzzle loaders. But the plug length is about twice what we use today. So everything considered, the gunsmith gave his OK for safe shooting with normal loads of black powder. I used 55/60 grains of FFG and FFFG for the pan. The butt cap and 3 inlays were repaired using genuine walrus tusk as per many originals. The barrel bands are genuine sterling silver and look better now that they have aged.

RickView attachment 180379View attachment 180380View attachment 180381

Thank you for showing the photographs. You have a magnificent gun.
Frank

 

[cyten]

An interesting photo from around 1890(?) showing Khevsur men with their famous chainmail. The rifle on the left fits the Turkish "Shishane" form much more than the Caucasian "Khirimi"

 

[cyten]

Came across this video from the History Channel's "Pawn Stars" HERE discussing and firing a very ornate Dagestani style pistol. Take the info at face value, purely a show for entertainment

 

[rickystl]

Came across this video from the History Channel's "Pawn Stars" HERE discussing and firing a very ornate Dagestani style pistol. Take the info at face value, purely a show for entertainment

That's certainly the most beautiful one I've ever seen !!!! WOW!!! That pistol would easily fetch at least $5-6,000.00USD at auction here.

Rick

 

[cyten]

From a private collection in Sweden, another double barreled gun! I have only seen one before, sold at auction in the US which I posted on this thread, but this one only uses one lock. I'm not a double gun expert, but I assume the single lock sets off both barrels simultaneously?

 

[Barud]

From a private collection in Sweden, another double barreled gun! I have only seen one before, sold at auction in the US which I posted on this thread, but this one only uses one lock. I'm not a double gun expert, but I assume the single lock sets off both barrels simultaneously?

Hello cyten,

First of all, nice find. These double barrel miquelets are of personal interest to me. It seems that the Caucasus was the only place in the Islamicate world where they made double barrel guns. I think I have seen a total of six so far, including this one.

Secondly, if you look closely you'll see that the lock seems to have two separate frizzens, which I assume would also mean two separate pans. I guess that they had separate channels so the shooter could, if he wished, close only one pan and fire only one barrel should he wish. Strikes me as somewhat of a cludgy system instead of having another lock on the other side, since you wouldn't be able to keep the pan primed, but I guess it beats having only one barrel.

 

[cyten]

Hello cyten,

First of all, nice find. These double barrel miquelets are of personal interest to me. It seems that the Caucasus was the only place in the Islamicate world where they made double barrel guns. I think I have seen a total of six so far, including this one.

Secondly, if you look closely you'll see that the lock seems to have two separate frizzens, which I assume would also mean two separate pans. I guess that they had separate channels so the shooter could, if he wished, close only one pan and fire only one barrel should he wish. Strikes me as somewhat of a cludgy system instead of having another lock on the other side, since you wouldn't be able to keep the pan primed, but I guess it beats having only one barrel.

I see what you mean about the split frizzen. I'd be interested to see the other examples you mention

 

[Barud]

I see what you mean about the split frizzen. I'd be interested to see the other examples you mention

Two, you already know. The split frizzen, and the other auctioned double barrel long gun which you posted earlier in this thread. Two are in the State Hermitage Museum in St. Petersburg, one a hunting gun (picture 1), one a pistol (picture 2). One gun is in a museum in the Kabardino-Balkarian Republic (picture 3). And one other pistol was sold at Hermann Historica's May 28, 2021 auction, the same auction where that magnificent pair of percussion-converted Caucasian pistols which you posted earlier in this thread were sold (picture 4):

 

[cyten]

Two, you already know. The split frizzen, and the other auctioned double barrel long gun which you posted earlier in this thread. Two are in the State Hermitage Museum in St. Petersburg, one a hunting gun (picture 1), one a pistol (picture 2). One gun is in a museum in the Kabardino-Balkarian Republic (picture 3). And one other pistol was sold at Hermann Historica's May 28, 2021 auction, the same auction where that magnificent pair of percussion-converted Caucasian pistols which you posted earlier in this thread were sold (picture 4):

Wow Barud, great finds! I dont know how I missed the ones in the Hermitage, I lived in St Petersburg for years! I'm still in awe of the one lock doubles, such a strange set up to me.

Here are some more photos I've come across.

Some action shots

Examples of their gun cases

A very interesting photo of a veteran (Russo-Turkish or WW1, I'm unsure of the photos date) and his Kindjal (dagger)

And a matching set of Circassian Tromblons

 

[cyten]

A little photoshop brain storming on how to modify a Kibler rifle into a Khirmi

A Caucasian wall gun lock, lockplate measures 5 inches across.

And a couple of Khirimi with Turkish locks. Not a super common feature. This first one is attributed to Armenia.

 

[cyten]

I've found a gunsmith nearby in Georgia who is making these from scratch! I was aware of a some in Dagestan who make display pieces, but this guy builds working pieces.

And very nice miniature