Caucasian Miquelet "Cossack" Pistol & Locks

[cyten]

 

[TobJohn]

I've found a gunsmith nearby in Georgia who is making these from scrap! I was aware of a some in Dagestan who make display pieces, but this guy builds working pieces.

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And very nice miniature


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Thats so cool! I love seeing people keep history alive. Does he export???

 

[cyten]

Thats so cool! I love seeing people keep history alive. Does he export???

I'm unsure of how that process would go on his end, but it's worth asking. He makes everything to order, I've seen him quote between $200-$400 for a lock, depending on decoration, unsure of an entire piece. PM me for his contacts.

 

[TobJohn]

I'm unsure of how that process would go on his end, but it's worth asking. He makes everything to order, I've seen him quote between $200-$400 for a lock, depending on decoration, unsure of an entire piece. PM me for his contacts.

Will do. A lock by itself is a tempting opportunity for a project in the future.

 

[cyten]

Will do. A lock by itself is a tempting opportunity for a project in the future.

Agreed! I have one that I'm planning to do something with

 

[rickystl]

Will do. A lock by itself is a tempting opportunity for a project in the future.

Cyten: Great find via this gun builder in Georgia. WOW!! He does great work. Wish I were 10 years younger.

Actually, that Kibler kit variation is not a bad idea. You could order just the stock and barrel with barrel and ramrod inlet, Leave the lock panels square with no inlet and the butt stock left square with no inlets. You won't need the Siler lock, trigger(s), trigger guard, butt plate, etc. Just order a lock and ball trigger from the Georgia smith.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Cyten: Great find via this gun builder in Georgia. WOW!! He does great work. Wish I were 10 years younger.

Actually, that Kibler kit variation is not a bad idea. You could order just the stock and barrel with barrel and ramrod inlet, Leave the lock panels square with no inlet and the butt stock left square with no inlets. You won't need the Siler lock, trigger(s), trigger guard, butt plate, etc. Just order a lock and ball trigger from the Georgia smith.

Rick

The Caucasian pistols also seem like a very digestible project, in both cost and commitment.

 

[rickystl]

Wish the builder had a website. Muzzle loading is alive in Georgia !!!

Rick

 

[JBrandon]

Yes, what is his usual market? Is there a local antique shooting tradition, or are these mainly show-off pieces for the wealthy the way some of the fancy swords are being refurbished and new made in the Middle East?

 

[cyten]

Yes, what is his usual market? Is there a local antique shooting tradition, or are these mainly show-off pieces for the wealthy the way some of the fancy swords are being refurbished and new made in the Middle East?

Muzzleloading is legal, however is regulated the same as shooting modern breechloaders. New shooters must own a smoothbore for 5 years before being permitted to own a rifled long gun (handguns are completely out of the question unless specifically granted to you by the president) this is of course after a mental health check, a doctor visit etc etc. Now that you have all that done, you may own 3 rifled guns and 5 smoothbores. Most people don't want to use their precious few spots for a muzzleloader, especially since black powder must be hand made, not available anywhere else. So, the majority of his customers are using them as decoration, no flash hole drilled.
However, I have never heard of muzzleloading being strictly regulated for the few who do it.

 

[rgiust]

IMA offerings are usually priced at a premium, but they take great photos. This is a nice plain example! Circassian lock with a clear makers mark, walrus ivory butt, and you can see the remains of the original leather sling in the rear sling slot! I think the description is odd, saying they were surprised it was rifled, smoothbores are very rare. Thanks for bringing this example up! Post pics if you buy it!

Original Caucusus Region Black Sea Miquelet Long Rifle with Gold Maker Marked Lock & Marine Ivory Butt Cap - Circa 1800
Hello, I'm new on this forum and I have an interest in Caucasian rifles, particularly ones with Circassian locks. I'm seriously considering buying this one as my first miquelet and if I do I'll post pictures. But I have a few concerns.
1: What would be a fair price for this gun? Would I be overpaying and if so is there anywhere else I should look for one?
2: The outside of the barrel looks to be in rough condition conpared to other examples. I understand these are made of Damascus steel, so would that make it unsafe to fire?
3: There doesn't appear to be a front sight. Is that typical of these? I saw one recently at the Baltimore antique arms show and it also didn't have a front sight, just 2 small gold lines at the muzzle. The seller told me these weapons didn't have any but I've seen examples online with front sights.
If this is the norm, how would one aim?
4: Are there any other things I should be concerned about with this one? You seem to be very knowledgeable about Caucasian guns.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rgiust. Welcome to the Forum.

As a general rule, the Caucasian and Greek origin shoulder guns and pistols have always brought a premium with collectors. At least as a whole compared to other Ottoman Empire guns. Same with their gun accessories.
The rifle you are looking at appears to be a nice, plain example with the bit less seen longer barrel length. And yes, a Circassian style lock. The $1,995.00 price they are asking is not out of line for a plain example. I would be thinking more like $1,600-1,800.00. But it's not way over-priced for what they are now asking. It's the guns with the gold applications on the locks and barrels, and the ivory inlays in the stock that drive the price up. If this were the case, the price would likely double - and they would still sell it.
On the other hand, this solid-looking plain example IMHO would be a great candidate to turn into a shooter, if desired. Have the seller use a bore scope and give you an accurate opinion of the bore's condition. Light rust won't hurt anything. But you want to check for any heavy corrosion or chips in the rifling. And ask if they have a 3-7 day return privilege ? Then re-examine the bore yourself. The outside of the Damascus barrel, from the photos appears more of a deeper, dark patina. But since the barrel lacks decoration, it will be easy to oil clean. The ramrod is a likely replacement. The originals were wood with a iron banding reinforcing the upper 1/3rd of the rod. But for shooting, you would want a different rod anyway. So that would really be a non-issue. As the seller mentions, there were at least two additional barrel bands that are missing. But those would be fairly easy to make out of plain iron and replace all three (or more). Unless it's a small piece of decoration, you seldom see brass used on Caucasian guns. It's always iron or silver. Also, if you purchase the gun, you may find the fore end of the stock was made in two pieces. This is common. The splice likely covered by that single barrel band. They did this procedure very well. You will want to un-breach the barrel and inspect the breech and plug for thread integrity. And it will be much easier to inspect the barrel and do a through cleaning. But even in the worst case scenario that it's determined the barrel is not shoot able as is, there is still a fix for that. LOL But that's for the next post. Hope this helps.

Rick

 

[cyten]

I agree with Ricks comments.

3: There doesn't appear to be a front sight. Is that typical of these? I saw one recently at the Baltimore antique arms show and it also didn't have a front sight, just 2 small gold lines at the muzzle. The seller told me these weapons didn't have any but I've seen examples online with front sights.
If this is the norm, how would one aim?

The two gold lines you speak of are a common feature on early Ottoman barrels ca. 17th-18th century. I havent seen it on Caucasian barrels, but Ottoman barrels were used on these guns as well

That being said, it is not uncommon to see missing front sights or front sights worn down to a nub

 

[rickystl]

Here is the front sight on my Caucasian shooter. It is very simple single blade that appears to have been made short since it still retains it's gold applique. Muzzle loading shooters often start with a taller front sight and is filed shorter during trial shooting to zero in to the target at the distance they anticipate shooting at. Of course, other variables enter the picture. The shortness of the front blade on my gun tells me the owner anticipated using the gun at longer distances. The gold could have been re-applied later.

As Cyten mentions, you will occasionally find the barrels with the twin blades for front sights, aiming/pointing between the two. The front sight on my Persian barrel is made similar.

The gun you're looking at appears to have a somewhat cannon style muzzle. You can't tell in the photos, but I'll bet there is a small groove cut on top of the cannon ring for a front sight.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Here is an example of a very tiny front sight from a rifle on display in the Dagestani National Museum

 

[rgiust]

Hi Rgiust. Welcome to the Forum.

As a general rule, the Caucasian and Greek origin shoulder guns and pistols have always brought a premium with collectors. At least as a whole compared to other Ottoman Empire guns. Same with their gun accessories.
The rifle you are looking at appears to be a nice, plain example with the bit less seen longer barrel length. And yes, a Circassian style lock. The $1,995.00 price they are asking is not out of line for a plain example. I would be thinking more like $1,600-1,800.00. But it's not way over-priced for what they are now asking. It's the guns with the gold applications on the locks and barrels, and the ivory inlays in the stock that drive the price up. If this were the case, the price would likely double - and they would still sell it.
On the other hand, this solid-looking plain example IMHO would be a great candidate to turn into a shooter, if desired. Have the seller use a bore scope and give you an accurate opinion of the bore's condition. Light rust won't hurt anything. But you want to check for any heavy corrosion or chips in the rifling. And ask if they have a 3-7 day return privilege ? Then re-examine the bore yourself. The outside of the Damascus barrel, from the photos appears more of a deeper, dark patina. But since the barrel lacks decoration, it will be easy to oil clean. The ramrod is a likely replacement. The originals were wood with a iron banding reinforcing the upper 1/3rd of the rod. But for shooting, you would want a different rod anyway. So that would really be a non-issue. As the seller mentions, there were at least two additional barrel bands that are missing. But those would be fairly easy to make out of plain iron and replace all three (or more). Unless it's a small piece of decoration, you seldom see brass used on Caucasian guns. It's always iron or silver. Also, if you purchase the gun, you may find the fore end of the stock was made in two pieces. This is common. The splice likely covered by that single barrel band. They did this procedure very well. You will want to un-breach the barrel and inspect the breech and plug for thread integrity. And it will be much easier to inspect the barrel and do a through cleaning. But even in the worst case scenario that it's determined the barrel is not shoot able as is, there is still a fix for that. LOL But that's for the next post. Hope this helps.

Rick

I agree with Ricks comments.


The two gold lines you speak of are a common feature on early Ottoman barrels ca. 17th-18th century. I havent seen it on Caucasian barrels, but Ottoman barrels were used on these guns as well

That being said, it is not uncommon to see missing front sights or front sights worn down to a nub

Thank you both for your detailed replies! Unfortunately the rifle sold over the weekend. I set up an appointment to come view the rifle in person today and bore scope it myself but IMA called this morning to say it's gone. I'm quite disappointed as I intended to use it as my main shooter.
Any suggestions for where I might find a similar rifle? Google has turned up nothing else after months of searching.

 

[rickystl]

Thank you both for your detailed replies! Unfortunately the rifle sold over the weekend. I set up an appointment to come view the rifle in person today and bore scope it myself but IMA called this morning to say it's gone. I'm quite disappointed as I intended to use it as my main shooter.
Any suggestions for where I might find a similar rifle? Google has turned up nothing else after months of searching.

I'm sure it was the same one I saw on an auction this past week. But DARN. Can't remember which auction. It sold for $2,250.00USD PLUS a buyer's premium (probably 20%+). They probably won't admit it was placed on auction. But they should have told you before accepting an appointment. Sorry to hear this. I'm sure it was the same gun. Not like similar one's are around every corner. But I watch the auctions frequently. I'll give you a head's up if one comes up for sale. Regardless of any advertising, most of these Caucasian shoulder guns you encounter today have rifled barrels. Be prepared to pay $2,000.00 + if you locate one. Good luck.

Here is my shooter....

Rick

 

[fireman1]

Thank you both for your detailed replies! Unfortunately the rifle sold over the weekend. I set up an appointment to come view the rifle in person today and bore scope it myself but IMA called this morning to say it's gone. I'm quite disappointed as I intended to use it as my main shooter.
Any suggestions for where I might find a similar rifle? Google has turned up nothing else after months of searching.

One thing I would do is post a WTB add here on the forum BUT be very careful of scammers. Only deal with guys that have a solid history here.

 

[rgiust]

I'm sure it was the same one I saw on an auction this past week. But DARN. Can't remember which auction. It sold for $2,250.00USD PLUS a buyer's premium (probably 20%+). They probably won't admit it was placed on auction. But they should have told you before accepting an appointment. Sorry to hear this. I'm sure it was the same gun. Not like similar one's are around every corner. But I watch the auctions frequently. I'll give you a head's up if one comes up for sale. Regardless of any advertising, most of these Caucasian shoulder guns you encounter today have rifled barrels. Be prepared to pay $2,000.00 + if you locate one. Good luck.

Here is my shooter....

Rick

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That's a shame if it truly was the same one. I told them to give me a call if the deal falls through with the other guy.
I'd very much appreciate a heads up! My budget right now is about $2500 if it's a plain rifle in good condition but for one like your shooter I'd be willing to spend a bit more. Your rifle is just beautiful! The decoration is very tasteful.

 

[rgiust]

One thing I would do is post a WTB add here on the forum BUT be very careful of scammers. Only deal with guys that have a solid history here.

Thanks for the advice. I'll put up a post.