Central India Matchlock

[Rudyard]

You'd be better off using buck-and-ball then, wouldn't you? The idea of double-loading two full-sized balls and "six fingers" of powder all at the same time gives me shudders. I'm not keen on having my face blown off by a ruptured breech, thanks.



I've heard it claimed that in ideal weather conditions (primarily meaning a dry day with little wind) a matchlock can be slightly more reliable than a flintlock, just due to the fact that you're introducing a pre-lit flame to the powder as opposed to relying on a piece of flint to create enough sparks to go "bang". But I haven't yet seen any empirical studies on the rates of misfire between a matchlock and a flintlock under good weather conditions. It would be interesting to know though.

Of course we've just been discussing India here so "ideal weather" is not something you're likely to get in the tropics.

Well that's your surmise not unreasonable but we are on another planet in terms of rational thought the particular climate probably no more a problem than any we share. There where shooting matches at Nyee Tal for the likes of Lt Forsythe but I never heard of native equivalent's not to say they didn't have them but matchlocks are hardly target rifles .The wealthy Nabobs , Maharajas ect might well have had matches but at that time I doubt such as they bothered with Matchlocks though there estate soldiery would possibly have then in the armories they kept .Ive walked across such armories inches deep in dust & littered with matchlocks & one had a belt fed machine gun lying in the dust ,swords, leather kit lances all the gubbins but the palace falling apart since the Independance deprived them of the Pension we paid these worthies to keep out of our hair .A notion scotched by the Socialist Indian Governments who usually dismissed the old order as .Their 'Ex rulers ' of these' Native States ' forced then to sell off such guns & better personal Sporting rifles often of the Best English makers . Which is where fellows like me 'Helped' Aliev there plight . I took tea with three Maharajahs in a day one time and by hurricane lamp in his Foyer we agreed on two double rifles after his nibs had returned from Shikar. hunting pigs with his 450 400 boxlock double his bearer's carried the pigs on poles . The Palace had no electricity hence the cooler Foyer & oil lamps. That dosn't make me Robert Clive but it might suggest I know a little of the land and subject . Regards Rudyard

 

[oldtimeplinker]

Well that's your surmise not unreasonable but we are on another planet in terms of rational thought the particular climate probably no more a problem than any we share. There where shooting matches at Nyee Tal for the likes of Lt Forsythe but I never heard of native equivalent's not to say they didn't have them but matchlocks are hardly target rifles .The wealthy Nabobs , Maharajas ect might well have had matches but at that time I doubt such as they bothered with Matchlocks though there estate soldiery would possibly have then in the armories they kept .Ive walked across such armories inches deep in dust & littered with matchlocks & one had a belt fed machine gun lying in the dust ,swords, leather kit lances all the gubbins but the palace falling apart since the Independance deprived them of the Pension we paid these worthies to keep out of our hair .A notion scotched by the Socialist Indian Governments who usually dismissed the old order as .Their 'Ex rulers ' of these' Native States ' forced then to sell off such guns & better personal Sporting rifles often of the Best English makers . Which is where fellows like me 'Helped' Aliev there plight . I took tea with three Maharajahs in a day one time and by hurricane lamp in his Foyer we agreed on two double rifles after his nibs had returned from Shikar. hunting pigs with his 450 400 boxlock double his bearer's carried the pigs on poles . The Palace had no electricity hence the cooler Foyer & oil lamps. That dosn't make me Robert Clive but it might suggest I know a little of the land and subject . Regards Rudyard

Rudyard you seem to have misinterpreted me, I wasn't trying to claim that the weather in India would have made matchlocks unusable, obviously it didn't as they were in widespread use in that country for centuries. I was just saying that I doubt in a wet tropical climate like that you're likely to find too many days where the weather conditions are perfect enough for a matchlock to be consistently more reliable than a flintlock.

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard you seem to have misinterpreted me, I wasn't trying to claim that the weather in India would have made matchlocks unusable, obviously it didn't as they were in widespread use in that country for centuries. I was just saying that I doubt in a wet tropical climate like that you're likely to find too many days where the weather conditions are perfect enough for a matchlock to be consistently more reliable than a flintlock.

Dear old Plinker The particular Region the Highlands of Central India where Forsythe worked as what Ide call 'Cruiser' for timber resource's ' Might be more steamy that some regions but that was where that hunt was . Too many ramble on about something they know nothing about regarding matchlocks .Would I hunt in these lush New Zealand forests using a matchlock ? .

Yes I often used one only it had to be a rifled barrel to suit the Dept Of Conservation rule that no smooth bore be used ,The same snap matchlock had a smooth barrel option and that I used in the appropriate matches under MLAIC conditions its rifled barrel was 54 cal most all my hunts where a week long affair I was a good bush man but now Ime too frail to go that long anymore .Ime sort of the' Old Sheraky' only he was fit. I expect ..Why they stuck with Matchlocks ? well they where used to them knew their foibles no doubt and flint locks need flints probably a factor I don't think there where native flint . hemp no problems .
Quite irrelevant Ime thinking of a Poem

viz " Now it is not good for the Christians health To hustle the Arrian Brown ' ' for the Christian riles & the Arrian Smiles & he whereth the Christian down.
'And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, with the name of the late deceased
.And an epitaph drear a fool lies here who tried to hustle the East .
Kipling of course .


Regards Rudyard (Pallid apology of the above )

 

[Sam squanch]

I think some traditions and customs die hard in certain parts of the world. If it was good enough for dad, it was good enough for me. That and matchlocks were low tech , so any blacksmith could fix one.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Oldtime,
Its like Rudyard says, vast areas of India have no flint or other stone that can be used as a flint, so the matchlock prevailed.
For fast ignition, a matchlock is very hard to beat with any muzzleloader, but if new at it, attending to your match takes time!

First hand accounts of northern tribesmen firing their matchlocks at the gallop, And hitting their target , are quite common.

I had that article stored somewhere, where the British officer was compelled through circumstance to shoot his tiger with a matchlock.
Will look for it!

 

[JBrandon]

Why matchlocks? Good question. When Nepal was 'subdued' (1805 I think) by the East India Co and started to get their Brown Bess muskets, they shortly began making good copies (and went on to copy Martinis and all the other British guns). All of India had long traditions of excellent metal work, so why not other flintlocks? The Nepalese arms that IMA acquired and has been selling included millions of gunflints - mostly imported British and some French, but a few of different poor material and not made by European techniques, so probably an attempt to start a local supply. Harding's massive books on EIC guns notes British attempts to start local Indian flint making too that didn't work out. But evidently it wasn't hard to supply flints through trade.
So the question remains - why did matchlocks survive. Probably not climate. Certainly not lack of ability to build them. Was it political? - Brits blocking flint supply except to Nepal and possibly a few others that they wanted as help to keep other subject states down?

 

[Sam squanch]

That and the local rulers and tax collectors didn’t want better weapons in the hands of the great unwashed…..

 

[RAEDWALD]

I have seen a sectioned Indian matchlock in which the plug was literally a plug, tapered with the small end to the rear and the barrel hammered down onto the taper, then finished; it was apparently very strong.

Richard Jeffries book ‘Bevis: The Story of a Boy’ (Bevis : the story of a boy : Jefferies, Richard, 1848-1887 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive) published in 1882 describes the making of a matchlock with a heat interference fit breech further secured by peening the rear whilst ‘white’ hot.

 

[oldtimeplinker]

Harding's massive books on EIC guns

I'm not familiar, could you post the titles or ISBNs please? That sounds like something I'd like to read.

Was it political? - Brits blocking flint supply except to Nepal and possibly a few others that they wanted as help to keep other subject states down?

Hm perhaps, I have read that Indian troops working for the British lagged behind a bit in receiving percussion guns when they finally came around, and some units were still being issued with flintlocks into the mid-1800s. So perhaps the Brits generally didn't want their colonial subjects getting the latest hardware too soon.

 

[TobJohn]

It seems like most of asia, that was not in the ottoman sphere of influence, skipped flintlocks and stayed with matchlocks until direct European influence introduced percussion system. Doesn’t Indian adoption of percussion arms also correspond with England taking more direct control of the sub continent? From my relatively limited knowledge of Indian history, I know of a couple times that Indian forces were able to beat the English during the 18th century, so maybe not the biggest handicap.

 

[Rudyard]

I don't think we brits did much subduing of Nepaul if there was it soon evolved to the link we still have. I only spent two months in Nepal curtesy of black water fever in 1969 . Had very good relations with the populace .I do have the four Volumes of David Harding's but cant say I read them cover to cover though I feature in vol 2 or the' Patterns ' He was a commissioned Officer in the Gurgas & still involved with their welfare he is as ' Pukka sahib' as any one could wish to be. A Proper Gentleman. (not a ruffian like me ) But like our 'Pukka'& me he's a Yorkshireman . Though Ime not parochial Ile talk to anyone (same as a Magpie .) I spent a lot of time in the States & actually married an American Who typically rants on about the evil Brits like most do since their all conditioned to do so in a vain attempt to justify the disgrace full rebellion . Tut Tut How vulgar .

It seems like most of asia, that was not in the ottoman sphere of influence, skipped flintlocks and stayed with matchlocks until direct European influence introduced percussion system. Doesn’t Indian adoption of percussion arms also correspond with England taking more direct control of the sub continent? From my relatively limited knowledge of Indian history, I know of a couple times that Indian forces were able to beat the English during the 18th century, so maybe not the biggest handicap.

Dear Tob John , Win some loose some you cant make an omelet without breaking eggs Usually we prevailed to overcome huge armies such as at Seringapatam & Assay .Wellesley the future Wellington was at both . later the Mutiny cost us but we gave back in greater measure . I once slept on the cantonments' of Cawnpore & before Deli. The ruins of the residency at Lucknow still left as a memorial .

Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Richard Jeffries book ‘Bevis: The Story of a Boy’ (Bevis : the story of a boy : Jefferies, Richard, 1848-1887 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive) published in 1882 describes the making of a matchlock with a heat interference fit breech further secured by peening the rear whilst ‘white’ hot.

Dear Raedwald ' Bevis & Mark the story of a boy' and " Will white hot shut tight ? "for a whole sixpence worth of the blacksmiths time .I think that book inspired me to go past the copper pipe horrors Ide been making & progressed ? to galved water pipe horrors .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Raedwald ' Bevis & Mark the story of a boy' and " Will white hot shut tight ? "for a whole sixpence worth of the blacksmiths time .I think that book inspired me to go past the copper pipe horrors Ide been making & progressed ? to galved water pipe horrors .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Incidentally' Niee Tal 'probably means' no worries' Niee is 'No' & the' Tal' might be Hindi for 'a good place' Pure guess but the' Akuna Matata ' of' Lion King' fame IE No worries for the rest of your days is likely Swahili .And I crewed and old steam Corvette the' Akuna' (Ex HMAS 'Gladstone') it was so renamed when fitted out as a pilot vessel working out of Port Phillip Melbourne .It.s JUST surmise but the thought of some Ausie Pilot giving it that name "Akuna' viz 'No worries ' rings true even if it wasn't meant .' No worries 'being in common usage & well understood . Other than pidgin or a bit of Arabic, my Zulu was the most rounded native tongue since I used it to ammuse My allotted' Boys ' Far more poetic than the mine pidgin called ''Fangolore'
Rudyard being whimsical

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Raedwald John,

I never knew of the Richard Jeffereis book. I though I had them all, LOL!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Here is the tiger hunt with native matchlock account....

https://jot101.com/2013/01/the-native-matchlock-tiger-hunting/

 

[Rudyard]

Well that pinned down the Tiger V matchlock tale Thank you Pukka .
Regards Rudyard