Chain fire!!

[Jim in Wisconsin]

I've had a few of those with my old Uberti Remington over the years and wondered what happened to the ball. Now I see there isn't much force behind it when that happens, the ball probably ended up on the ground next to me. It's not a big deal or that much to worry about.

 

[Red Owl]

I haven’t been able to find number 10 caps for some time so I’ve been making do with 1075s or 11s for all of my revolvers. I sometimes have to pinch my number 11 caps to keep them on the nipples, and although others say this is inviting trouble, I don’t know what else to do except not shoot my revolvers at all – obviously not an option.

I haven’t had any problems until the last trip to the range with my Uberti 1861 Navy. This wasn’t my first chain fire but I’ve only had one before. When I pulled the trigger on the second or third shot I felt something wrong and my first thought was chain fire, but the chamber next to the one that I just fired was ok and I didn’t see any stray holes in my target. So I thought maybe I was wrong about the chain fire and kept shooting. The next two shots were good, but then I discovered the empty chamber. The loading plunger in the pic below should give you a clue to what happened. (Look closely!) I didn’t dare shoot anymore until I had taken the gun home to clean and inspect it. Fortunately, there’s no damage and all is OK. Anyone else have a chain fire like this?

Was that the first round of the day? I've been trying to keep a record of these incidents and it seems very often the chain fire starts right at the start of the day, that is, the first round fired. Why is the question? I then tried to figure out if the gun, the last time it was cleaned, had a coat of oil everywhere to prevent rust and this oil was in the chambers prior to loading- that is- the chambers were not "de-oiled" with rubbing alcohol etc. prior loading up. Okay, so next- years ago this guy said he thought a ball in the chamber moved forward from recoil and exposed the powder which exploded. His argument was this would explain why little damage seems to be done in most of these chain fire incidents.
Different folks use different sized balls. Years ago a ring of lead was shaved off when the ball was rammed/seated. Later, a simply pressure fit seemed okay.
In any event, for the record.
1. Loose caps- obviously could have caused it.
2. Balls- pressure fit or ring of lead
3. De-oiled gun prior to loading?
4. Occurred first cylinder of the day?
Thanks.

 

[Dude]

Read this fellows “study” and findings on chain-fire. I tend to agree with him, as his experiences are commensurate with mine.

https://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html

Thank you Campbell! This makes a LOT of sense!

In fact, I'm reading everything on his site. Good stuff.

 

[kh54]

Was that the first round of the day? I've been trying to keep a record of these incidents and it seems very often the chain fire starts right at the start of the day, that is, the first round fired. Why is the question? I then tried to figure out if the gun, the last time it was cleaned, had a coat of oil everywhere to prevent rust and this oil was in the chambers prior to loading- that is- the chambers were not "de-oiled" with rubbing alcohol etc. prior loading up. Okay, so next- years ago this guy said he thought a ball in the chamber moved forward from recoil and exposed the powder which exploded. His argument was this would explain why little damage seems to be done in most of these chain fire incidents.
Different folks use different sized balls. Years ago a ring of lead was shaved off when the ball was rammed/seated. Later, a simply pressure fit seemed okay.
In any event, for the record.
1. Loose caps- obviously could have caused it.
2. Balls- pressure fit or ring of lead
3. De-oiled gun prior to loading?
4. Occurred first cylinder of the day?
Thanks.

I appreciate comments, questions and suggestions. I have been very busy and unable to respond to any responses until now. And I'll be away for a couple of weeks after tomorrow so this may be my last post for a while. But I do want to clarify a couple of things:

• The only other chain fire I experienced was a few years ago and I don't remember the specifics. I only remember that the errant ball came from the next cylinder in line and seemed to have deflected off the barrel. I was shooting an 1860 Army reproduction with a shoulder stock at in indoor/underground range with a rifle tube, so no one was in danger. And on this occasion with the 1861 Navy I was behind full height side walls, so again no threat to others.
• This was the second round out of the second cylinder load when the chain fire occurred.
• I should have explained why I pinched my caps. They were snug when loaded but a couple jarred loose with my first shot on the first cylinder I fired. That's why I started pinching the caps, just to make them tighter not to make them fit because they were way oversized. I had earlier shot a full cylinder load with a Paterson and traded off to compare the two. No issues with the Paterson.
• .375 balls all seated with a thin ring of lead.
• I don't believe that I leave enough oil after cleaning that could foul nipples or any other part of the gun, and I clean after every trip to the range. I wipe off all excessive oil and use dry swabs in the bore and chambers. The last step I take is to run a dry pipe cleaner through every nipple before putting away the gun.
• The suggestion that the nipples are too long I believe is based on the apparent length of the one nipple shown in my photo of the cylinder. The point of focus is to the right of the nipple that you see, so the perspective makes it appear that it's too long. Look how the edge of the cylinder seems to overhang the frame itself. So no, this is not a problem in this case. It may be interesting for someone to try this with a worn gun by backing out a nipple a bit and see if it can cause a chain fire. My guns are all too new or too well cared for.

Thanks again everybody!

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I suggest the nipples are too long because they are not set up properly. When properly set up the hammer never touches the nipple, it will just detonate the cap. Folks install their cap rakes, Slik Shots, have chain fires and all sorts of problems which would likely be eliminated by filing nipples to fit the gun. I've been shooting revolvers over 40 years: never had a chain fire. I've never actually seen one though. I don't have problems with caps fouling the action. I am likely doing something wrong....

 

[nick_1]

The Cap hitting the frame is a possibility but most likely the cause is flame coming in the front. No effing way flame came in the bottom chamber through the nipple.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I appreciate comments, questions and suggestions. I have been very busy and unable to respond to any responses until now. And I'll be away for a couple of weeks after tomorrow so this may be my last post for a while. But I do want to clarify a couple of things:

• The only other chain fire I experienced was a few years ago and I don't remember the specifics. I only remember that the errant ball came from the next cylinder in line and seemed to have deflected off the barrel. I was shooting an 1860 Army reproduction with a shoulder stock at in indoor/underground range with a rifle tube, so no one was in danger. And on this occasion with the 1861 Navy I was behind full height side walls, so again no threat to others.
• This was the second round out of the second cylinder load when the chain fire occurred.
• I should have explained why I pinched my caps. They were snug when loaded but a couple jarred loose with my first shot on the first cylinder I fired. That's why I started pinching the caps, just to make them tighter not to make them fit because they were way oversized. I had earlier shot a full cylinder load with a Paterson and traded off to compare the two. No issues with the Paterson.
• .375 balls all seated with a thin ring of lead.
• I don't believe that I leave enough oil after cleaning that could foul nipples or any other part of the gun, and I clean after every trip to the range. I wipe off all excessive oil and use dry swabs in the bore and chambers. The last step I take is to run a dry pipe cleaner through every nipple before putting away the gun.
• The suggestion that the nipples are too long I believe is based on the apparent length of the one nipple shown in my photo of the cylinder. The point of focus is to the right of the nipple that you see, so the perspective makes it appear that it's too long. Look how the edge of the cylinder seems to overhang the frame itself. So no, this is not a problem in this case. It may be interesting for someone to try this with a worn gun by backing out a nipple a bit and see if it can cause a chain fire. My guns are all too new or too well cared for.

Thanks again everybody!

Um... you want somebody to actually TRY to get a chain fire? Really?!

 

[jd945043]

The nature of the beast comes to mind. Chain fire happens to all percussion revolvers at some point even if you do everything you can to do it right. It's written about in the early days of cap and ball revolvers and it was part of the reason that improvement was made. For the holier than thou crowd who never had one I am happy for you. We have cartridges now and you never hear of the term.

 

[Stantheman86]

The nature of the beast comes to mind. Chain fire happens to all percussion revolvers at some point even if you do everything you can to do it right. It's written about in the early days of cap and ball revolvers and it was part of the reason that improvement was made. For the holier than thou crowd who never had one I am happy for you. We have cartridges now and you never hear of the term.

Exactly, the "percussion period" only lasted 30 years or so. And most people didn't shoot as much as we do today. The "reproduction period " of the 1950s to now is now almost 3 times longer than the original period.

Not a single person who used revolvers for anything important originally missed percussion revolvers when the opportunity to go to cartridges was available

This is like the topic of "flash fires" in muzzleloading rifles, from embers lighting off the charge. Properly mitigated , you'll probably never have one but they still can happen, this is why we don't load from a flask. The fix for this was, cartridges.

Relaxed gun laws and Spaghetti Westerns are why the Italian gun makers started cranking out repro cap and ballers otherwise this thread probably wouldn't exist, because there would be no market for repro percussion revolvers and none of us would be shooting them unless you had an original

 

[Bunk]

I haven’t been able to find number 10 caps for some time so I’ve been making do with 1075s or 11s for all of my revolvers. I sometimes have to pinch my number 11 caps to keep them on the nipples, and although others say this is inviting trouble, I don’t know what else to do except not shoot my revolvers at all – obviously not an option.

I haven’t had any problems until the last trip to the range with my Uberti 1861 Navy. This wasn’t my first chain fire but I’ve only had one before. When I pulled the trigger on the second or third shot I felt something wrong and my first thought was chain fire, but the chamber next to the one that I just fired was ok and I didn’t see any stray holes in my target. So I thought maybe I was wrong about the chain fire and kept shooting. The next two shots were good, but then I discovered the empty chamber. The loading plunger in the pic below should give you a clue to what happened. (Look closely!) I didn’t dare shoot anymore until I had taken the gun home to clean and inspect it. Fortunately, there’s no damage and all is OK. Anyone else have a chain fire like this?

Contact Track Of the Wolf and get a set of nipples that fit 1075 caps before you damage something or somebody. Oddly enough the stock factory nipples on my new Taylor Uberti1851 Navy fit the 1075 perfectly.
Think i will go shoot it,
off to the range
Bunk

 

[Red Owl]

I've only had one, I don't think it was the first round for the day, maybe I fired about 18 rounds. Chamber to the right of the chamber in line, no damage. Strange sound caused me to look things over. Powder, wad, ball. I don't shave lead (.375) but balls always seem to fit tight. Caps don't go flying off much after I fire them. Never found a cause. So if others can't re-call- been there.

 

[SPQR70AD]

Never heard of a chain fire damaging a gun or shooter.
The balls only come out of the adjacent chambers at about 150 fps.

the safety freaks think if there is a chain fire all will be dead in a 10 mile radius

 

[nick_1]

what are 1075 caps???

 

[Bunk]

what are 1075 caps???

RWS made in Germany and I may have the number wrong. They fall in size as I recall a bit smaller than the Remington #10 and a bit bigger that the CCI#10.
Good caps and hot guarantee ignition.
Bunk

 

[Erwan]

what are 1075 caps???

1075 and 1075+ are caps made by RWS in Germany (that I mostly use), any real difference with Remington, CCI, or Sellier Bellot, and some other except sometimes for the size...

 

[Dave Dworshak]

There has to be some force from the outside chambers chain firing to jam a ball into the plunger hole.

 

[Stantheman86]

RWS 1075s are impossible to find

I also have a Uberti .36 that takes .375 balls that fit tight , leave a compression "ring" around the ball but don't usually shave a complete clean ring of lead , I haven't had a chain fire yet.

Loading from a flask can contribute to chain fires, loose powder on the cylinder face and trickled on top of loaded balls by accident can create more flash that can sneak by a tightly seated ball. There is a guy who did extensive experiments on this and a thorough write up, it's been posted on this forum numerous times

My random questions are-

Are conical bullets less prone to chain fires than balls?

Are nitrate cartridges less prone to chain fires than loading loose?

The idea of caps sitting high and being popped by slamming into the recoil shield is new to me but seems very sound.

Powder subs vs Real Black, differences in chain fire occurrences?

I just try to keep my caps tight and projectiles seated with a shaved ring . All we can do, is do our best

I once had some bad .38 rounds have the bullets creep out of the cases and jam a S&W revolver and I've actually heard of chain fires in cartridge revolvers . They are very rare and almost always caused by improperly crimped cartridges that also sit close to the chamber mouth.

Basically, shooting a gun is a very mechanically violent process and we're holding a device that contains a small explosion and propels a projectile. Lots of stuff can go wrong especially when we're working with technology developed in the 1830's

 

[smoothshooter]

We warn and we warn, but....

OK, so you had your first chain-fire. I haven't experienced one yet, which puts you one up on me. Now, learn from the experience:

1. If you have number 10 nipples, you need number 10 caps.
2. if you can't find number 10 caps, either don't shoot the gun or get some number 11 nipples for your gun, then you can shoot #11 caps.
3. If you can't find #11 nipples, then you can't safely shoot your gun.
4. Read the Fine Manual and follow the clearly written instructions.
5. Don't worry. You aren't the first one to do something foolish and you won't be the last.

Percussion revolvers are designed to survive chain-fires. I would suspect that this does not add much comfort the the actual experience, and just because it was designed to survive a chain fire does not mean that it will actually survive one. You stated that not firing your revolver(s) is not an option. Groovy. Firing it with improper caps is not really an option either.

Good luck!

I’ve been pinchin’ caps off and on for about 40 years and haven’t had a chain-fire yet.

 

[Bunk]

RWS 1075s are impossible to find

I also have a Uberti .36 that takes .375 balls that fit tight , leave a compression "ring" around the ball but don't usually shave a complete clean ring of lead , I haven't had a chain fire yet.

Loading from a flask can contribute to chain fires, loose powder on the cylinder face and trickled on top of loaded balls by accident can create more flash that can sneak by a tightly seated ball. There is a guy who did extensive experiments on this and a thorough write up, it's been posted on this forum numerous times

My random questions are-

Are conical bullets less prone to chain fires than balls?

Are nitrate cartridges less prone to chain fires than loading loose?

The idea of caps sitting high and being popped by slamming into the recoil shield is new to me but seems very sound.

Powder subs vs Real Black, differences in chain fire occurrences?

I just try to keep my caps tight and projectiles seated with a shaved ring . All we can do, is do our best

I once had some bad .38 rounds have the bullets creep out of the cases and jam a S&W revolver and I've actually heard of chain fires in cartridge revolvers . They are very rare and almost always caused by improperly crimped cartridges that also sit close to the chamber mouth.

Basically, shooting a gun is a very mechanically violent process and we're holding a device that contains a small explosion and propels a projectile. Lots of stuff can go wrong especially when we're working with technology developed in the 1830's

At night or in a darkened place snap a cap on an unloaded pistol and be amazed at the the fireball around the recoil shield all just from the cap. If that flame gets around a loose or "pinched' or missing cap and see where a chain fire comes from.
NOW THIS IS IMPORTANT
Do not load directly from a flask. Pour powder from the flask into a measure or empty shell case or something and then into the chamber. One little spark and the flask becomes a hand grenade and your nickname becomes Lefty that is if you survive.
Black Gunpowder is an EXPLOSIVE. It is called Gunpowder to differentiate it from BLASTING powder, made using the same manufacturing process, same ingredients just a different finishing process for Gunpowder.
I cannot speak for substitutes other that American Pioneer Powder which also is an explosive.
be safe, have fun, but se your head. It is a real firearm not a toy.
Your friendly curmudgeon
Bunk

 

[jimhallam]

Never heard of a chain fire damaging a gun or shooter.
The balls only come out of the adjacent chambers at about 150 fps.

How do you KNOW that, please ?