Changing patch makes a difference

[MikeChapin]

I have been shooting .515 balls with .024 canvas patching. The rifle shoots well but I want to go back to shooting .520s because casting balls is a little easier with a double cavity mold.

I used to shoot .520 balls with .018 Ox Yoke ticking but started having fliers. I found the Ox Yoke was burning though one or two out of five patches. I switched to a .515 ball with .024 and the problem went away. I did want to go back to the .520s so, about a month ago, I tried out the .520s with a .022 medium weight denim patch. The group at 50 yards was horrible, about six inches. I didn't have time to mess with it then so put load workup on hold.

Yesterday I went back out to the range to work up a load for the .520 ball. I normally shoot 50 grains 3F with the .515 and had tried that last month so I fired two five shot groups with 55 and 60 grains. Both were still in the 5" to 6" inch range at 50 yards. The patches I recovered looked fine with no cutting or burn through. I was not very happy with it. Normally I should see some improvement but there was none in this case.

I decided to try the .024 canvas I use for the .515s and see if they would even load with less than a two pound sledge. I dropped back to 50 grains and tried the canvas. They started with just a sharper slap on the short starter and went down fine. The target I had been using was pretty shot up so I switched to a target someone had left up. It had a pristine day-glow center. The first shot went in center. The second shot went in touching the first. The third shot cloverleafed the other two. Now that is what is supposed to happen.

I decided to try three shots offhand at 25 yards. There was the same type of pistol target there that had a clean center. I put two touching in the middle. The third shot was an inch off but I had wobbled up there when the rifle went off. The ball went right where the sights were at when it went off. Yahoo!

This was the most dramatic shift I have ever seen with a change in patching. Normally I adjust the load to get the best group at 50 yards. If the shots are not touching I then mess with the patching until I start tearing out the center. Normally this takes about a two inch group down to cloverleafs. I have never seen it take a six inch spray down to a cloverleaf with just a change in patching.

Now I have to take it out to 100 yards and see what load it needs to go dead on at that range. Casting will go a little faster using a two cavity mold instead of the single.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Congratulations, Mike, on solving the problem. I think you have the right combination, now.

If you are calling your off-hand shots, you are doing everything right. No one puts all their shots where they aim every time they shoot. The balls go where the barrel is pointed when the gun goes off!

The only way I found to reduce the amount of " drift" was to pay a lot of attention to how and where I placed my feet when Off-hand shooting.
If I am consistent in my stance, The sights move less off the aiming point than when I am not consistent.

( I work up my stance to shoot by mounting the gun with my eyes closed, counting 5 seconds, then opening my eyes to see where the sights are pointing. I move my feet one way or another to correct windage, and even elevation.

[See my article on Off-hand and Trick Shooting, under Articles, at the top of the index page to this forum, under Member Resources.]

With practice, My feet and body align much more closely to the optimum angles, even during casual shooting, and, eventually, when hunting, so that my off-hand shooting is much more accurate.)

I don't know if these ideas can help you or not. I just know I have had the same frustration shooting good groups off-hand, where I throw a shot to ruin a perfect group! I had my first 4 shots in the 10 ring of a target shooting off-hand at 50 yards, one day, and I jerked the last shot down to the seven ring at 5 o'clock! :shocked2: :cursing: I am not complaining about shooting a .47-2X target off-hand at 50 yards, but it would have been nicer if that fifth ball had joined the first 4! A guy has to have goals, after all. :rotf: :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[J.D.]

Good going Mike, those Santa Fe Hawkens shoot real well. My oldest son is still shooting the one I bought back in the mid 1980's, and it is still a tack driver.

Could I ask, where did you find a .520, double cavity mould?

Can't find a .520 mould anywhere, much less a double cavity.

Thanks, and God bless,
J.D.

 

[silverfox]

I agree. Where did you get a .520 I have been looking for one for a while myself.
Boy those Santa Fe's realy shoot well.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[ciffer]

may i ask why you are firing FFFg?

 

[texcl]

I can't speak for mike but I use 3f for everything up to .62 cal. In my experience it shoots cleaner and typically gets more consistant results than 1 or 2f.

 

[ciffer]

I can't speak for mike but I use 3f for everything up to .62 cal. In my experience it shoots cleaner and typically gets more consistant results than 1 or 2f.

interesting. i have had trouble with FFFg in my .50 caliber Traditions trapper pistol. the patches consistently showed that gas was blowing past the ball. accuracy improved for me with FFg. that said, all guns are different and we all seem to have different powder/patch/ball strategies.

 

[MikeChapin]

...

Could I ask, where did you find a .520, double cavity mould?

Can't find a .520 mould anywhere, much less a double cavity.

Thanks, and God bless,
J.D.

I picked it up back in the '80s when I got the rifle. At first I could not find one and got a Lyman single cavity .515, one they don't make anymore. Before I finished the first kit I ran into a double cavity .520 mold from Palmetto. At the time I was a dealer and picked up two in case someone else got one of the closeout Santa Fe's. I can't remember where I got it from. I think I still have it around some place. If I find it I will put it up for sale.

Paul, thanks for the advice. I have two problems with offhand shooting. The first is four shotitis - Four good shots and blow the fifth. That usually indicates I don't get out to shoot enough and that is my case. The other is age. I just don't hold as steady in my sixties as I did when I was in my thirties. In my thirties I used to average in the mid thirties on the 50 yard six bull with occasional forays into the low forties. Now, with lack of practice and age, I am happy to get into the low thirties. Oh well...The lack of practice I can fix. The other I'm stuck with.

As for using 3F, I use it in everything from .32 to .58. I find it shoots cleaner and more constantly than 2F. I don't shoot heavy loads. My hunting load for the Santa Fe is 75 grains. That will punch a .520 ball all the way through an elk's chest at 70 yards and I can place it properly every time. Plenty enough.

 

[paulvallandigham]

NOthing works for most folks in their 60s as it did in their 30s. That is why your stance is even more important to good shooting. The rest is MENTAL. The mental part of shooting is always the most difficult to master, and needs constant attention. I have beaten many better shots than me, simply because I learned and earned my "stage legs" many years ago when my mother pushed me out in front of others to perform. She was trying to help me overcome my shyness, but I hated performing none-the-less. I learned to shut out everything around me, both visual and auditory.

With shooting, and that 5th shot jitters, one way to help yourself is to NOT look at your targets to see where you are hitting until you have fired all 5, or 10 shots that the match requires. We all put way too much pressure on ourselves when we know we are shooting a person Record breaking score! Don't LOOK. Let yourself be pleasantly surprised when all the shots are fired. And, tell other shooters who are watching that they are not to tell you where the balls are hitting, or the next shot you fire will be through their heads! In competition, I have seen and heard other shooters purposely tell a shooter where his shots are going, JUST TO put him under more stress, and cause him to blow the group. Its part of competition.

As a National ATA champion several times over told my best friend when he was starting out shooting Doubles Trap, " First you shoot the first target, and then you shoot the second target". Concentrate on THIS SHOT- not the one before, or the ones to come-- but ONLY THIS ONE. Do it right.

My friend became one of the finest Doubles Trap shooters in Illinois in his day In the 1980s, you could not go to any Trap shooting event within a hundred miles where he was NOT known. I saw people stop what they were doing to watch him shoot Doubles Trap- he was that good.

Oh, I used shooting Doubles Trap to make me a better rifle shooter, as it forced me to concentrate while being very active in moving the shotgun from one target to the next. That Concentration carried over to off-hand target shooting with my rifle, helping with my breath control, my trigger squeeze and follow through. I went many years shooting only BP rifles, and was surprised when I finally dusted off some of my modern rifles and took them out shooting. I was and am a much better off-hand rifle shooter because of the skills, and concentration, I learned shooting Trap, and BP rifles.

Best wishes to you. :thumbsup:

 

[jan buck]

i have noticed that just by changing to different cap can change impact by as much as 6inches. same load ect, cap change and whamo! 6" higher. weird. :shocked2:

 

interesting. i have had trouble with FFFg in my .50 caliber Traditions trapper pistol. the patches consistently showed that gas was blowing past the ball. accuracy improved for me with FFg.

By how much are you reducing the load when you use FFF?

 

[ciffer]

that was when i first put that pistol together, i was using FFFg because that is what i had at the time. i think i was firing 30-35gr.

 

[Walks with fire]

I have found that patch thickness makes a big difference in my rifle as well. I use a .495 ball with .024 blue jean patch now. It looks unfired other than a brown spot where the powder hits it. No shredding at the ends or anything. I also use Crisco lube because it works better than anything else I have tried; and I tried a bunch. They say to use the thickest patch that will load in your rifle; With a .490 ball I could go to a .030 patch but I doubt it would work any better.

 

[MikeChapin]

I took the the Santa Fe out yesterday to see where it was hitting at 100 yards. I found out why the only scoring shot I got at 100 yards at state. I was using a 50 yard BP pistol target to check where I was hitting. The 75 grain load I was using was hitting about an inch or so above the black. Given my offhand skills at 100 yards I was shooting everything high last week. I dropped it to 70 grains and they went in an inch below center.

It was interesting that there was an off and on breeze so I wound up with two groups. One group was 4" to the left of the center group. They would go to the left when the stiff breeze came up. I don't really call it a wind because the chain was barely rattling on the pole.

I used a thick denim patch, .032, on my .58 when I was shooting a .562 ball. It took a whack or two with the short starter to get it started but they went down alright after that. The .562 would not shoot well at all with the .024 canvas. Later I went to a .570 ball and a .022 medium weight denim that does very well in that rifle - a little better than the .562 ball. It seems that every rifle wants it own particular brand of food.

 

that was when i first put that pistol together, i was using FFFg because that is what i had at the time. i think i was firing 30-35gr.

That's not what I asked. I asked how much you reduced the load from FF when you switched to FFF. If all you did was shoot some FFF and not spend the time to work up an accurate load, then your results don't tell you anything.

It's one thing to work up an accurate load with both FF and FFF and have something to compare, it's quite different to say "I shot some FFF once and didn't like it". :wink:

 

[Klaus]

Hello,

i read this topic with interrest regarding your loads and ball diamensiones.
Here in Germany the most use a .535 Ball with a .005 or .010 Patch in their Uberti or Pedersoli Hawken.
I do not, because i have a very old Uberti Hawken one of the very first production in the earlie `80 maybe.There are some hints like a large based rearsight and a Caliber .53 instaed of a .54
The Bore was not able to fit a .530 ball it`s to tight.
So i got some probs at the beginning and give a try it with the .527 Lee Mould an a very thin patch.
After some times of unsuccessful tries i got some luck because a colleague sold his RCBS Mould in .520.
From this time on the Rifle hits the target constandly where i aim to
My favorite Load is 65 grs of Wano ( Graff) Hunting Powder Nr. 1, a 0.15 Canvaspatch soaked with a Ballistol/ Water Mix.
No wiping between the shoots is needed

I will attache a pic from last weekend - 50 meters offhand. the two bulletholes down at 6 o`clock regarding due to my changing to aim on top
the two flyers right ( minor concentration)

seems it works

kind regards
Klaus

 

[jan buck]

thats some good off hand shooting klaus.
i use the ballistol/water mix also.6/1.

 

[MikeChapin]

Nice going on the target. The Santa Fe I use is an older Uberti .53. I can use either a .515 or .520. After this weekend it looks like the .520 will be used and the .515 mold greased up and packed away.

 

[Klaus]

next time i`ll try a hunting load about 80 or 90 grains on 50 an 100 meters.
i do not hunt, but i`m curious where the impact will be on given distances

Klaus :wink: