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Charles Moore Flintlock Target Pistol

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You grew up in an entirely different world, where shooting a pistol was done for fun, rather than in a society where one did not usually shoot for fun. You're applying your rules to 18th Century rules, where very few people could afford handguns, and the very rich wanted the best they could get as a practical gun for settling affairs of honor, to which there were books written to the code of the duel. To violate this code would get you censured among your peers, which was a horrible fate among the dueling class.
Totally disagree, but agree, to totally disagree. !!! :) Smiley Face! Human nature remains the same. A man, well to do, or otherwise would enjoy shooting his pistol. People enjoyed shooting a pistol for fun...are we going to get into another "this never happened" discussion? Do we have a time machine? "Rules"?? Rules? We don't got no stinking rules!! I am not "applying" rules. I don't think people were anymore constrained by rules then, as we are now. If a man wanted to go out back, sit down, and shoot his dueling pistol that would be his business. And generally speaking, people did, absolutely, shoot guns for fun, practice, and socializing. Absolutely.

Would you never shoot your dueling pistol, if there was a possibility you might get involved in one someday? No one ever practiced with their dueling pistols??????????? WHAT????????????????? "Practice" was against the rules? And if you did, better not enjoy it? Because someone might poo-poo you? I'm fine with agreeing on "not likely", "not usually", as far as these debates go. But I won't accept "never". And it's hard to accept the premise that we know so much about what people thought, or did, hundreds of years ago. We can make very good guesses and assumptions, and back some of them up with "documentation", but we can not say that rich dude never shot his dueling pistols, or used them casually. That's nonsense. Humanity changes for sure, but human nature remains constant.

??
 
I think that people in the 18th century had the same basic nature of people today. Go back further than that and my reading about the British longbow tells me that one theory about the proliferation of the weapon starting about the 14th century was that is a fad that spread rapidly.

As with most military forces, the British found out that in the hands of a skilled archer the longbow was a formidable weapon. So the military took advantage of this simple weapon.

When you look at the elegant workmanship that went into rifles, fowling pieces and dueling pistols of the 18th and early 19th centuries it doesn't take much guess work to know that the end users of those products liked their guns.

From a cultural standpoint the 13 colonies weren't that much different than mother England. Being that the colonists were basically on the frontier of the British empire necessitated the possession and development of the skill-sets for firearms.

However, that wasn't the sole reason. Our forefathers could rightly be classified as gun-nuts; to use the modern vernacular. Morgan's riflemen were no doubt, the long range shooting enthusiasts of the day just like the archers of the 15th century who fought at Agincourt.

I have some very expensive firearms that some people are aghast at the fact that I shoot them. I could afford them and I bought them to shoot not just to look at.

Am I little disappointed in the quality of the Pedersoli product. Yes, just a little. But looking at the overall pistol, I have to say that I like the way it points, the single-set trigger, the checkering on the grips, the German silver finish and the accuracy.

I have to qualify my statement about the accuracy. Some of you may have seen my target in an earlier posting. There were a lot of fliers in that target. Those errant holes were my fault. It's been a while since I shot a flintlock pistol and I'm getting reuse to doing things with them again. That's my best excuse and I'm sticking to it.

So when I analyze the target, I see a fairly tight clusters of bullet holes about 1 1/2 inches to the 3 O'clock of the bulls-eye. That tells me that there is some potential with this pistol. I've seen other postings about the accuracy of the cap lock versions. So there is some hope for my flintlocks.

I haven't been able to find too many articles on the Charles Moore pistols but there is one that made me think that their might be a good reason for the gap between the underlug and the ram rod.

The photo below is from this article: https://jasonclarkeantiques.co.uk/p...lock-duelling-pistols-by-charles-moore-london

Pair_of_Flintlock_Duelling_Pistols_by_Charles_Moore_London_3.jpg


Take a close look at the ramrods in the above photo. They are tapered. So when you look at the pistol with the ramrods installed there isn't the gap like there is on mine.

Pair_of_Flintlock_Duelling_Pistols_by_Charles_Moore_London_1.jpg


To say this another way; the thicker part of the ramrod takes up a lot of room in the forward thimble.

With my pistols, there is a lot of wiggle room in that forward thimble but fits very snugly in the rear most thimble.

Moore (4).jpg


This got me to thinking. Could Pedersoli have copied a Charles Moore pistol with the enlarged forward thimble (to the original dimensions) but not used a tapered ramrod? Well, it certainly looks like the answer is yes.

Look again at the two original pistols. The horn-tipped end of the ramrod comes pretty close to the end of the underlug, whereas my ramrods sit farther back.

Moore (1).jpg


So rather than spend a lot of time trying to re-inlet the reproduction pistols, I might be better off if I fabricate a tapered ramrod like the original pistols. I may experiment with a dowel rod before using a walnut shaft and trying to shape some horn tips. If a cheap, sanded dowel rod fits then a nicely tapered walnut shaft may give these pistols that original look.

BTW, I talked with the gunsmith at DGW about the issue with the flint and scarred frizzen on my new pistol. He told me that Pedersoli now ships the guns with a flint installed and they do strike the frizzen. So I'm going to keep the pistol, start working on new ramrods and shoot the heck out of them.
 
I just discovered something else by looking at the photos of the original pistols. This time, I looked at the photos showing the left side of the guns.

Pair_of_Flintlock_Duelling_Pistols_by_Charles_Moore_London_2.jpg


The underlugs are tapered to accommodate the ramrods. Look at the close up.

Pair_of_Flintlock_Duelling_Pistols_by_Charles_Moore_London_2 Close up.jpg


Here are a pair of caplock Moore pistols that also show a tapered underlug.

Original Moore Pistols.jpg
Original Moore Pistol Close Up.jpg


I'm still probably going to fashion tapered ramrods for the pistols but am not going to the expense of making a tapered underlug just to close up a gap.

Besides, this is a article about a gentleman using a smooth bore Pedersoli Charles Moore flintlock to achieve a perfect score in an international championship. Look at the photos in the article. You will see a gap between the underlug and the ramrod of his pistol. By the look on his face, he appears to have no complaints.

http://mlaic.org/2016/05/08/the-first-ever-100-score-in-cominazzo-achieved-by-ernst-stefan/
 
Wow, good observations. I've never had a doubt that the pistols are not accurate. One of the joys of having those pistols is all the times you will get to shoot them, in search of the best accuracy they will produce. Tapered ram rods! Who would have thunk, and a tapered under-lug to match. That is too cool.

I notice on that set of Moore duelers, (no sights?) that they show way more handling marks that they would have ever received from staying in a box all their life, and seldom being shot. I'm thinking that someone enjoyed shooting them often.
 
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Maybe those “handling marks”, or character marks were caused by the losers in the duels dropping the pistols... :eek:

Enfield, I have to compliment you on your amazing ability judging character. I just want to let you know, I’m still here for you should the need arise...:cool:
 
Hi Richard and TFoley,
I enjoy it when you guys pipe in about the actual social realities of life back in the day.
I just discovered something else by looking at the photos of the original pistols. This time, I looked at the photos showing the left side of the guns.

View attachment 6036

The underlugs are tapered to accommodate the ramrods. Look at the close up.

View attachment 6038

Here are a pair of caplock Moore pistols that also show a tapered underlug.

View attachment 6039 View attachment 6040

I'm still probably going to fashion tapered ramrods for the pistols but am not going to the expense of making a tapered underlug just to close up a gap.

Besides, this is a article about a gentleman using a smooth bore Pedersoli Charles Moore flintlock to achieve a perfect score in an international championship. Look at the photos in the article. You will see a gap between the underlug and the ramrod of his pistol. By the look on his face, he appears to have no complaints.

http://mlaic.org/2016/05/08/the-first-ever-100-score-in-cominazzo-achieved-by-ernst-stefan/
Hi,
It is good that you are looking at those original pistols and starting to notice some things. The rib is tapered to fit a tapered ramrod snugly. Also note that there is less wood left on the stock, particularly along the barrel channel than your reproductions. The rear ramrod thimble is likely a smaller diameter than the first thimble to accommodate the tapered rod. The barrel key escutcheon plates do no show any screw heads. The barrel key is inserted (always on British guns, always) from the side opposite the locks. Note also how thin it is compared to yours. The lock plates are shaped differently. Your lock plate may be similar to original Moore pistols made during the percussion era. Pedersoli may have used one such pistol as a model for their percussion version and slapped a frizzen and flintcock on it to make their flintlock version. On the first photo of original pistols note the screw head in the front trigger guard finial. That screw holds the front of the guard in place but threads into the bottom of the standing breech. That, along with the tang bolt, firmly holds the standing breech in place when the barrel with snug fitting hook is removed or installed. The original pistol locks all have sliding safety bolts that you can see behind the flintcocks. That bolt is slid forward which slides a bar into a slot on the back of the tumbler, locking it in place until the slide is pushed back. These are just some of the details that characterize British dueling pistols but that Pedersolis had to ignore or the price would be very high.

dave
 
Hi Richard and TFoley,
I enjoy it when you guys pipe in about the actual social realities of life back in the day.

Hi,
It is good that you are looking at those original pistols and starting to notice some things. The rib is tapered to fit a tapered ramrod snugly. Also note that there is less wood left on the stock, particularly along the barrel channel than your reproductions. The rear ramrod thimble is likely a smaller diameter than the first thimble to accommodate the tapered rod. The barrel key escutcheon plates do no show any screw heads. The barrel key is inserted (always on British guns, always) from the side opposite the locks. Note also how thin it is compared to yours. The lock plates are shaped differently. Your lock plate may be similar to original Moore pistols made during the percussion era. Pedersoli may have used one such pistol as a model for their percussion version and slapped a frizzen and flintcock on it to make their flintlock version. On the first photo of original pistols note the screw head in the front trigger guard finial. That screw holds the front of the guard in place but threads into the bottom of the standing breech. That, along with the tang bolt, firmly holds the standing breech in place when the barrel with snug fitting hook is removed or installed. The original pistol locks all have sliding safety bolts that you can see behind the flintcocks. That bolt is slid forward which slides a bar into a slot on the back of the tumbler, locking it in place until the slide is pushed back. These are just some of the details that characterize British dueling pistols but that Pedersolis had to ignore or the price would be very high.

dave
I agree that if Pedersoli put in more detail then I probably could not afford a brace of pistols that look like the originals.

So I should probably be happy with what I got now.
 
Whoa...I had no idea Richard and Tfoley were that old. I must show more respect. (not sure which person Richard is?) Takes very little research to find just how popular shooting was, for fun, even as far back as the 1500's.

Okay Dave, I don't contest anything you are saying, but my question would still be, If Lyman can produce the Plains Pistol for $300, and get everything right on the nose cap/ram-rod/thimble thing, why can't Pedersoli do it for $800? I realize the nose caps are different on those guns, and involves a separate thimble...but...is it THAT hard, or expensive, to give the ram-rod a straight shot into the stock? I'm not talking tapered ram rods and under lugs, just a straight shot into the thimble, with the forward thimble inset into the under-lug. ??? Would you not just fit the nose cap first, then inlet the thimble to fit? As far as I know, nose-caps are not the most difficult part of building a pistol. Or....are they?????
 
Oh....or does the lock interfere with the ram rod channel? Hmmmmmmm...........????
 
Dave Person:

I wonder why ramrods were added to dueling pistols? They may have been supplied in the case. For a one or two or three shot pistol, seems like either custom or something. What little I know of dueling pistols were the shooters even allowed to load the pistols themselves?
 
Good point. I don't believe the duelists were allowed to load the pistol, and that it was usually done by a "second", a chosen assistant. Perhaps a hang-over or tradition from when duels were first fought with a matching pair of hoss pistols? Again, good question.
 
Thomas Jefferson was an avid shooter. He has several quotes advising the use of "the gun" for exercise and leisure. He is known for walking around in the woods shooting at tree limbs, etc.
 
In the 18th and well into the 19th centuries, pistol shooting for 'fun' in Europe was virtually unknown, particularly in the British Isles where less than 1% of the population owned 95% of the property and money that went with it. The practice of 'practice' in shooting a pistol was frowned upon as 'not quite the thing' old boy', especially where the possibility of a duel was a likely event. Gene L has said it better than I have done.
 
My bad. I thought we were talking about colonial America. It's good to have a great knowledge of things, but when opinion over powers that knowledge, and opinions become absolute...maybe not such a good thing. I just don't think that in any era, people walking in robotic lock-step with official social norms, was a social reality. But, I could be wrong. :)
 
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Disregard everything past the first and second sentence. Had/have a stomach bug for the last four days...getting pretty grumpy. Got cabin fever bad.
 
Disregard everything past the first and second sentence. Had/have a stomach bug for the last four days...getting pretty grumpy. Got cabin fever bad.
No worries, we've all been there and done that at one time or another. I have found that the good folks on this forum are very forgiving. One needs but apologize for grumpy, rude, argumentative posts and forgiveness is instantaneous. One of the things that makes me love this forum. Most are generous with second chances if you do get into a bit of a dust up with another member. I've only put one member on the ignore list, and I took him back off after a couple of days when I'd cooled off. No troubles since. Anyone can have a really bad day!
 
No worries, we've all been there and done that at one time or another. I have found that the good folks on this forum are very forgiving. One needs but apologize for grumpy, rude, argumentative posts and forgiveness is instantaneous. One of the things that makes me love this forum. Most are generous with second chances if you do get into a bit of a dust up with another member. I've only put one member on the ignore list, and I took him back off after a couple of days when I'd cooled off. No troubles since. Anyone can have a really bad day!
At least nobody has demanded “satisfaction” and asked for others to be there seconds.
 
Double yikes. Had not considered that. However, you would certainly find me in the back yard practicing hard with my Plains Pistol. :)
 
Wow, those original dueling pistols are absolutely beautiful! Made for someone with coin to spare for sure! I guess that's why they always bought a pair of them, that way if you were challenged you couldn't beg off by saying you didn't have a gun. You might guess if you didn't the guy that did, just might be a better shot than you. Did the challenged get to pick a pistol first? That seems only fair, as the owner would know which of the two shot best. Or were the pistols provided by someone with no dog in the fight?
 
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