Charles Moore Flintlock Target Pistol

[dave_person]

Whoa...I had no idea Richard and Tfoley were that old. I must show more respect. (not sure which person Richard is?) Takes very little research to find just how popular shooting was, for fun, even as far back as the 1500's.

Okay Dave, I don't contest anything you are saying, but my question would still be, If Lyman can produce the Plains Pistol for $300, and get everything right on the nose cap/ram-rod/thimble thing, why can't Pedersoli do it for $800? I realize the nose caps are different on those guns, and involves a separate thimble...but...is it THAT hard, or expensive, to give the ram-rod a straight shot into the stock? I'm not talking tapered ram rods and under lugs, just a straight shot into the thimble, with the forward thimble inset into the under-lug. ??? Would you not just fit the nose cap first, then inlet the thimble to fit? As far as I know, nose-caps are not the most difficult part of building a pistol. Or....are they?????

Hi Rat,
I am not excusing Pedersoli for the poor nose cap fit. That is just lousy workmanship. My point is that they did not make an accurate copy of any original pistol simply because to do it right would result in a pistol costing a lot more than they charge now. Now then with Jim Kibler's CNC machining programmed to make a real dueling pistol, you might get close for a reasonable cost. The problem, however, is the lock. No commercial maker has a suitable English pistol lock. I had to build mine from cast parts by E. J. Blackley in England. They were copied from an original dueling pistol by Robert Wogdon. Wogdon was the maker of the pistols used in the Burr-Hamilton duel. I had to make all the springs and screws from scratch.

In 1783 a short poem was published in London about dueling, which included the following lines,
"Hail Wogdon! Patron of that leaden death
Which waits alike the bully and the brave".

dave

 

[dave_person]

Dave Person:

I wonder why ramrods were added to dueling pistols? They may have been supplied in the case. For a one or two or three shot pistol, seems like either custom or something. What little I know of dueling pistols were the shooters even allowed to load the pistols themselves?

Hi Gene,
I suspect they fitted ramrods because that was just traditional. Some cased sets had a separate loading and cleaning rod along with the ramrods. However, often one ramrod of the pair of pistols was fitted with a special powder measure instead of the normal horn tip. It looked like a long trumpet shaped ramrod tip but it unscrewed from the rod and then was turned around and could be screwed back on the rod. Now the rod had a hollow tube powder measure on its end. They would fill it with powder, hold it upright and invert the pistol over it. Then pushed the rod all the way down the barrel and turned pistol and rod around so the powder dropped into the barrel right at the bottom of the breech. That way the full and consistent charge was loaded without any powder sticking to the barrel walls. The pistols used in the Hamilton duel had that feature.

dave

 

[PluggedNickel]

Hi Rat,
I am not excusing Pedersoli for the poor nose cap fit. That is just lousy workmanship. My point is that they did not make an accurate copy of any original pistol simply because to do it right would result in a pistol costing a lot more than they charge now. Now then with Jim Kibler's CNC machining programmed to make a real dueling pistol, you might get close for a reasonable cost. The problem, however, is the lock. No commercial maker has a suitable English pistol lock. I had to build mine from cast parts by E. J. Blackley in England. They were copied from an original dueling pistol by Robert Wogdon. Wogdon was the maker of the pistols used in the Burr-Hamilton duel. I had to make all the springs and screws from scratch.

In 1783 a short poem was published in London about dueling, which included the following lines,
"Hail Wogdon! Patron of that leaden death
Which waits alike the bully and the brave".

dave

Wow, that lock is gorgeous!

 

[Enfield58]

Wow, those original dueling pistols are absolutely beautiful! Made for someone with coin to spare for sure! I guess that's why they always bought a pair of them, that way if you were challenged you couldn't beg off by saying you didn't have a gun. You might guess if you didn't the guy that did, just might be a better shot than you. Did the challenged get to pick a pistol first? That seems only fair, as the owner would know which of the two shot best. Or were the pistols provided by someone with no dog in the fight?

The person receiving the challenge got to choose the weapons. So if you got challenged, and were good with a sword, you'd pick swords. If you were good with pistols, then you'd pick pistols.

A long time ago the ex-wife's attorney kept saying that he could beat me up. He even said it in court. He basically told the jury that I was a coward and accused me of only yelling at little girls and women. None of that was true.

Even though none of his accusations were true it still didn't stop him from saying he could beat me up. He must have thought that would impress the jury.

I don't want to get into the details of the case as it is only of tangential importance to the subject of dueling.

Anyway, I got tired of this big fat slob telling everyone that he could beat me up.

So I wrote him a very LEGAL letter and had my attorney deliver it to him.

I basically said that if he thought that he could beat me up that I was challenging him to a boxing match. I made it perfectly clear that the challenge was not a threat and I wished him a long healthy life.

This was an opportunity for him to teach me a lesson if he can.

I was challenging him to a LEGALLY recognized form of athletic competition and that we must follow all Federal, State and Local laws governing that competition. We also had to follow the rules of whatever governing athletic organization that was recognized in that area.

I said that unless it was prohibited by law or athletic rules that I would like to dispense with mouth guards and gloves. It was to be bare knuckles and no protection unless prohibited.

I told him that we should both sign a hold harmless agreement and be responsible for our own medical bills.

I told him that the challenge was only going to be made one time and was good indefinitely.

After my attorney delivered Mr. Big-Mouth the letter, I made sure that plenty of copies were spread around the court house.

From what I was told, he got a lot of teasing; especially from the Judge who would ask him if he was going to accept my challenge.

So go ahead and ask me if I think dueling should be legalized. I think most people know what my answer would be.

What was the old adage? "Beware the man that owns two dueling pistols; he very likely knows how to use them."

 

[Enfield58]

Wow, that lock is gorgeous!

I agree with PluggedNickel. That lock is a work of art. Are you putting it on a pistol?

I know it sounds like a stupid question but I got to ask.

 

[PluggedNickel]

The person receiving the challenge got to choose the weapons.

I was challenging him to a LEGALLY recognized form of athletic competition and that we must follow all Federal, State and Local laws governing that competition. We also had to follow the rules of whatever governing athletic organization that was recognized in that area.

I said that unless it was prohibited by law or athletic rules that I would like to dispense with mouth guards and gloves. It was to be bare knuckles and no protection unless prohibited.

I told him that we should both sign a hold harmless agreement and be responsible for our own medical bills.

I told him that the challenge was only going to be made one time and was good indefinitely.

After my attorney delivered Mr. Big-Mouth the letter, I made sure that plenty of copies were spread around the court house.

From what I was told, he got a lot of teasing; especially from the Judge who would ask him if he was going to accept my challenge.

So go ahead and ask me if I think dueling should be legalized. I think most people know what my answer would be.

What was the old adage? "Beware the man that owns two dueling pistols; he very likely knows how to use them."

Now that is funny! You Sir are a hoot! Mr. Blowhard fatso got quiet as a mouse about beating you up after that I'll bet! Made me smile reading it! Thanks!

 

[Gene L]

What I think is beautiful in English dueling pistols is they had to produce pistols under a rather strict proscriptions. They weren't ornate (bad form) but were seriously developed. French dueling pistols were rifled and the death rate from French duels was higher than English, or so I've read. French pistols were chased with silver, while English pistols were plain by comparison in line with their somber duty. I believe the pistols in the Burr/Hamilton duel are on exhibition somewhere, and upon far-away inspection look rather normal.

Alexander Pushkin fought 29 duels, but lost and died to number 30.

 

[TFoley]

In the middle 1830s England, one elderly gentleman was asked about his pair of Nock flint duelers and if he had considered replacing them with them new-fangled modern percussion pistols that were proving so popular. He replied that he was more than satisfied with the performance of his old guns - in spite of engaging in over twenty ''exchanges", he noted, HE was still here.

 

[dave_person]

I agree with PluggedNickel. That lock is a work of art. Are you putting it on a pistol?

I know it sounds like a stupid question but I got to ask.

Hi Enfield,
They are the locks that I put on the pistols I posted previously.

 

[Enfield58]

Hi Enfield,
They are the locks that I put on the pistols I posted previously.

The locks and the pistols are fantastic.

 

[Enfield58]

The Horatio Hornblower miniseries was one of the best movies adapted from C.S. Forrester's writings. What I liked best about it was the depiction of the long-standing feud between Mr. Hornblower and Mr. Simpson. The acting between both of them seemed almost real.

Anyway, Simpson keeps riding Hornblower's fantail way too much til he delivers the "insult" at a game of cards. That went over the line and gives Hornblower a chance to put Simpson in his place for good.



The challenge is accepted and seconds are chosen. However, Clayton, one of Hornblower's friends and second render's him unconscious then takes his place against Simpson.



Clayton ultimately dies from his wound. Hornblower gets a second chance.



The acting is really good and attention to detail in the clothing, equipment and settings is exceptional. On the other hand, the spectators and the men officiating the duels are too close to the line of fire; especially the sailors behind Hornblower in the second duel.

It can be argued back and forth about whether or not people shot their dueling pistols for sport back then but they were no fools. This would have been especially true among military men all too familiar with the devastating effect of gunfire. In reality they would have been as far away from the line of fire as possible.

Besides the shot taken by Hornblower's Skipper is a little to unrealistic, especially considering the distance and that the load would have been buck & ball.

What's important to note behind these scenes is the backdrop leading up to any dueling of the day. In today's environment, too many people get away with lying, cheating, slander and bullying. Why? Because it works.

The offending parties are rarely punished. If they are taken to court, a slap on the wrist is the punishment for the day. Most of the time, it is little compensation for the offended party.

The nice thing about dueling, when it was legal; was that society was probably a lot more polite and one better think twice before sleeping with another's wife or committing acts of slander and liable.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I believe in the fourth season of the modern BBC production of "Poldark", Ross is challenged to a duel. While Ross is familiar with fire arms and pistols in general, his practice scenes show that his skills are at best mediocre. What is important is that in 1800 England, dueling was against the law and both contestants went to a place where there would be few to no witnesses other than the seconds. First shot both missed. Second shot, Ross was wounded and a fatal round was delivered to the opponent. Poldark was arrested for dueling and tried, but only because of the deathbed statement of the deceased, did Ross obtain no conviction. Yes, "Poldark" is a series of fiction, some element of fact is to be considered. Dueling was illegal. Most pistols were part of a cased set for self defense. Dueling may have happened, but one could be prosecuted for dueling.

The pistols used were very nice flintlocks. BBC knows how to do material culture period pieces correctly.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
IMO the best depiction of dueling with pistols is in the movie "Barry Lyndon". It also has one of the best depictions of 18th century warfare in Europe.

dave

 

[Rat]

Wow, to be involved in 29 duels, the guy had to be a sore-head. I don't think I'd hang out with him. I think he had a stomach bug, and cabin fever. On the nose cap thing, I understand the additional costs and all, but the rest of the Pedersoli Charles Moore pistol looks to me to be very well done, it's just funny they stop there, and then cut corners. To me, the contrast between the nose cap thing, and the rest of the pistol is "stark". That is what puzzles me. Also seems that a tapered under-lug could very easily be mass produced, and I personally could inset/inlet a forward ram-rod thimble into it with a file, in about ten minutes. So I'm still not seeing where it would be a major price increase over the current product. There lies my confusion.

I agree that the ram-rods were traditional, and would guess that before it was common to make sets of pistols for the purpose of the duel, that matched sets of horse pistols were used, which were common, and they then "evolved" from them. Or not. That's my theory. !!!

 

[TFoley]

One only has to look at the near sublime fit of the Pedersoli LePage target pistol to see what DP can REALLY do by comparison with the pistol of the OP. See capandball's intro to it on YT, shooting the LePage pistol.

 

[Enfield58]

One only has to look at the near sublime fit of the Pedersoli LePage target pistol to see what DP can REALLY do by comparison with the pistol of the OP. See capandball's intro to it on YT, shooting the LePage pistol.

I've watched that video. I agree that Pedersoli can produce some outstanding guns.

With one exception, my Howdah pistol had a marvelous fit and finish for something that was around $800. I felt like I got a good deal.

The 2nd Moore pistol has a little better fit and finish. Still I bought these guns to shoot more than anything else. And that's what I intend to do.

I can't tell you how many times I've looked at the photos of AAOG and Dave Person's pistols and admired their work. It's pure artistry.

 

[Rat]

Hey 58, your pistols are perfectly fine. I had never seen good close up pics of the Pedersoli Charles Moore before, so those minor flaws really jumped out at me. I'd still love to have one.

Yeah...Dave and OG's pistols. I could see going into hock for one of them.

 

[Gene L]

I believe in the fourth season of the modern BBC production of "Poldark", Ross is challenged to a duel. While Ross is familiar with fire arms and pistols in general, his practice scenes show that his skills are at best mediocre. What is important is that in 1800 England, dueling was against the law and both contestants went to a place where there would be few to no witnesses other than the seconds. First shot both missed. Second shot, Ross was wounded and a fatal round was delivered to the opponent. Poldark was arrested for dueling and tried, but only because of the deathbed statement of the deceased, did Ross obtain no conviction. Yes, "Poldark" is a series of fiction, some element of fact is to be considered. Dueling was illegal. Most pistols were part of a cased set for self defense. Dueling may have happened, but one could be prosecuted for dueling.

The pistols used were very nice flintlocks. BBC knows how to do material culture period pieces correctly.

Disagree. While dueling was illegal, it was practiced widely among the upper class. Dueling pistols were EXTREMELY expensive, they had hair triggers, were cased with implements not necessary for defense. There were "traveling pistols" for self defense. They, too, were well made but nothing like duelers. It was illegal in the US as well, but it happened. The Burr-Hamilton duel happened in a secluded place, Burr was indicted but not convicted in either NY or NJ. Jim Bowie attended a duel held on an island in the Mississippi where jurisdiction was in question, where he got into a knife fight and killed his opponent.

 

[Enfield58]

Hey 58, your pistols are perfectly fine. I had never seen good close up pics of the Pedersoli Charles Moore before, so those minor flaws really jumped out at me. I'd still love to have one.

Yeah...Dave and OG's pistols. I could see going into hock for one of them.

Thanks.

 

[Stantheman86]

The LePage pistol by Pedersoli is widely used by European muzzleloading shooters and is maybe fitted to a higher standard?