checking recovered patches?

[cookie077]

Hello everyone.

I have been out this afternoon shooting my first muzzleloader. It is an Investarms .50 cal

I have tried a few different things in the last few weeks and now think I am close to finding what works for me with this one.

This time out I used .495 Hornady balls. My patches were what the fabric store called shoe canvas. It is around .020. I used no name vegetable shortening for lube.

I think my patches look o/k but I have no experenice. Hope some one can help.

When using 50 grains all looks good. When I bumped up to 60 grains for 100 yard range my patches just started to come apart a bit. I did not know if I should cange anything as groups seemed o/k.

first 2 pictures are a patch using 50 grains 3f, last 2 are of a patch from 60 grains 3f. Any opinions would be great.


Happy shooting. Cookie.

 

[jtmattison]

Your patches look fine. It appears you may still have slightly sharp edges on the rifling lands or maybe some small burs. The outer edges of the patches coming apart is normal. It just looks like the weave of the fabric you chose is not very tight. You might want to try some pillow ticking. I'd say you have made a pretty good start.

:thumbsup:

HD

 

[hanshi]

They look fine to me, too. A barrel will "shoot in" so if there are any sharp edges to the lands they will smooth out with shooting.

 

[swedepie]

Are they hard to get down the barrel? I have the same rifle and with a .495 ball and .020 patch I have to hammer on it to get it started. .490 ball and .015 patch is what I'm playing with and trying to figure a sweet spot. Mac.

 

[cookie077]

No problem loading, and easy to go 10 - 15 shots with out swabbing. This patch material seems to hold a lot of lube and keeps everything soft. Not sure about using that much lube for a hunting load that stays in for a time but have had no problems at the range so far. I made a short starter with about 6' dowel and a nice big handle that really helps to start things.
All the thinner patches I tried had a lot of burn through.(even the store bought ones)

Happy shooting. Cookie

 

[ohio ramrod]

You might want to try putting a dry patch between the lubed patch/ball and powder to prevent burning of the patch with heavier charges and to prevent the lube from damping the powder charge. I started doing this several years ago and it helps .

 

[paulvallandigham]

I see some hint of tearing at the bottom of the round dark stains in the photos of these patches, suggesting that you have a sharp edge on the Crown of the muzzle. Its not unusual for commercially made gun barrels to need a bit of polishing of the crowns to help start the PRB, and to prevent cutting of the patch. Polish the crown and that bit of tearing should disappear. This appears, BTW, to be ONE land, with a sharp edge to it.

You can use a head of a lag bolt, or the butt of a handle for a file, to support emery cloth- fine, or extra vine- to polish the land and crown.

I have done this by hand on several guns, and it always improves the ease of loading, stops the occasional tear, or hole in the patching, and improves the accuracy. I hold the abrasive still in the crown, and rotate the barrel with my other hand. That keeps the angle of the abrasive more steady, than trying to both hold the abrasive and turn the bolt, or handle with the abrasive with the same hand.

 

Cookie,

Your patches look fine. Keep shooting and have fun. :v

 

[cookie077]

Ohio Ramrod The dry patch buffer sounds like something I want to try. Do you ram the dry patch first or just push it in before the regular patch??

 

[flinthead]

Your third patch looks like mine do, except I cut my patch off after seating the ball flush with the muzzle so the recovered patches end up being circular.

I use crisco for lube with an over powder wad made from 1/2 square of toilet paper. For some reason the wad tightened up the groups considerably. I went to the wad to protect the powder from the lube and it helped the groups as well.

My rifles are a Lyman Deerstalker and Trade Rifle both in 54 flint lock.

 

[MSW]

i agree with Paul; you appear to have a sharp land which will most probably shoot smooth. hard to tell without recovering a ball if you're getting good obduration, but if the rifle groups well, chances are you are.

i recommend that you continue shooting in the barrel and, if you don't already, get Dutch Schoultz' system and give that a try.

make good smoke

 

[roundball]

"...if you're getting good obduration, but if the rifle groups well, chances are you are..."

Personally, I doubt seriously any obturation is taking place at all, using only an entry level target load of 50-60grns powder
:v

 

[longcruise]

first 2 pictures are a patch using 50 grains 3f, last 2 are of a patch from 60 grains 3f. Any opinions would be great.

60 grains is not a very heavy charge and should not be tearing patches just on the basis on the charge weight. Did you find this difference in all the patches? If you found this with all and not just four patches there is surely rough barrel problem.

Things might improve with a tighter patch combo but I'm in agreement with others here who think you need to condition your barrel some.

You should improve the crown and hand lap or firelap the barrel. You can shoot the barrel in with 300 to 600 rounds, but the crown will never improve with shooting.

 

[hanshi]

The recommendation concerning using an over powder wad is a very good one. I started doing this quite a while back to prevent powder contamination by the lube. I found it also protects the patches though I've really never had much problem with this. I've used a dry patch, wasp nest, toilet paper and lubed,felt wads meant for c&b revolvers. The best all around is toilet paper. It's cheap and works great. Just take 1/4 to 1/2 sheet and roll it between your fingers into a more or less ball shape and seat this down on the powder. It take only a few seconds. Then seat the prb as usual. For hunting I prefer the lubed felt wads, if available in my rifle's caliber. If not, wasp nest or toilet paper works great.

 

[cookie077]

Thank You all for looking and for the advice.

Would anyone have a good picture of an ideal crown??

I have been sitting here looking down my bore with a little light and my crown is a little rough and not very even looking. So I will work on that.

I will do some hand lapping as well. I have some really fine stuff that will do the job I am sure.

What kind of charge do you guys use for 50 cal roundball target shooting. I have never tried anything over 70 grains of 3f. But that was with some thinner patches.


Thank You for your time and Happy Shooting. Cookie

 

[longcruise]

Would anyone have a good picture of an ideal crown??

I have been sitting here looking down my bore with a little light and my crown is a little rough and not very even looking. So I will work on that.

There are some pictures included here. Not calling this an ideal crown. It's just improved to protect the patch and make starting the ball a bit easier. With an easier starting crown you can use a bit thicker patch since starting the ball is always harder than sending it home.

This certaily not the only way of doing things but it is one way.

Link

You can do a pretty good job of lapping your barrel at home with a tight patch impregnated with correct compound. Use long complete passes and change your patch often. Don't use cleaning patches, use the ball patching stuff.

 

Cookie,

i have a .45 with a douglas barrel that was cutting patches. i tried scotch-brite pads, and steel wool, on a jag (heck of a work out)and all that is well and good. But honestly, that barrel didnt settle down till i had put 5 or 600 rounds thru it. im not a big range guy. i trek in the woods and love to burn BP, so i didnt mind shooting it in. Now its dead on.

Of course if your crown isnt perfect, then that's a different story.

good luck :v

 

[flinthead]

I have noticed that wasps nest seems to be consumed in the bore. When I use toilet paper you see a few sparks plus it blows a few shreds out, however the patches suffer no burning at all no matter what the load. Plus the toilet paper allows me to be more consistant, ie 1/2 square or 1 square ect.

With wasps nest I am sort of guessing whether I put the same ammount in each time.

 

[hanshi]

A problem but a minor one. What's more of a problem for me is simply finding enough! For this reason I, like you, much prefer toilet paper.

Cookie077, In my .50 & .54 I hunt with 100 grains of 3f. I've found 50 - 55 grains a good target/everyday load in .50, .54 and .45.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The Amount of filler you use should have little effect on accuracy, as long as its enough to provide a good gas seal. If your patch does not have a scorched center( ie., its either " white", or whatever color the lube in the fabric is), the filler is doing its job. Fillers tend to compact quite well, so being "off a bit " is just not going to make much difference.

I have used TP in cartridges to fill empty space, and keep smokeless powder back against the primer, for more consistent ignition and chamber pressures, and I see no reason NOT to use it as a filler in you rifle, too. Its solving a different problem, of course.

Once caution. If you are hunting or shooting over very dry turf, you might want to keep an eye out for any glowing embers that are letting smoke rise from where they land around your muzzle. Put the fires out when they are small.

OR, switch to using Hornet's nest material. It is about as fireproof as natural materials get for this kind of thing.

For what its worth, I am using a measured( volume measure on a powder flask) amount of corn meal as a filler. It also sends out only a few burning embers, while the rest of it confetti's all over you when you fire the gun. The embers are very small, because of the meal size, and they rarely are burning when they hit the turf below.

I have two measuring tubes for that flask: One is for about 20 grains by volume, which I used to use when I was shooting a .45 caliber rifle; the other is a 50 grain tube I bought at Friendship, with the intent of cutting and filing off part of the length to lessen the amount of corn meal it throws. However, I tried it "as is " with the larger amount, and it worked just fine in my .50 caliber rifle. So, I have not shortened the tube. My time and effort to cut the tube, and file it flat, and smooth off the crown so I cut my finger on it was worth more than saving less than a penny a shot. If all that filler made the ball change its POI, I would have shortened it. It didn't.