cleanest powder

[jamesthomas]

Unless Boar-dilly was talkin' about getting that Savage Model that uses smokeless. :barf:

 

[boar]

Yes they make a muzzleloader that shoots smokeless powder, has a barrel made for smokeless powder. My wife's oxygen deliver man has one. Says he don't have worry about cleaning it. :thumbsup: Dilly

 

[paulvallandigham]

DO NOT USE Smokeless powder, of any kind, in a MLer. These guns are designed to be shot using real Black Powder.

At the top of the Shooting Accessories thread here, you will find a permanent thread that tells you where to get real Black Powder. Also, on the Index page to this forum, towards the top, is a box marked, " Member Resources". Towards the bottom of that box is thread marked, " Articles, Charts, and Links". The information is there for your benefit. PLEASE take some time to explore all three topics, and see what is there. explore the threads at the top of each new topic marked in Red INK, to see what information is there. If you click on "inks" , it will take you to a list of suppliers of all kinds of products for MLers, including a fairly complete list of Powder sources.

The owner of this forum has provided this information because these are topics of interest that crop up so regularly here.

In addition, many of the big Sporting goods chain stores, like Cabelas, have Black Powder in their stores, but it is stored out of sight of the normal customers to comply with Federal laws enacted after 9-11-01( Homeland Security Act). You have to ASK for it. Apparently, they have not figured out that they might actually sell more of it to customers, if they posted signs in their stores indicating that they have it to sell, and to whom the customer may ask for it.

Any black powder will leave you Carbon in the barrel. Carbon is the largest single component of Black Powder! Its the other trace elements, and compounds that are part of the residue that causes the problems with how clean a barrel is after a shot is fired.

I find that if you have a TIGHT seal between the powder and PRB that any powder will burn more completely, even in my flintlock, and leave less residue. I found that when its really dry out, you get more fouling than if the humidity is higher(high). I have found that if I sift the powder to remove "fines"( bits of powder chipped off the granules) from it, and produce more consistently sized granules, that I get less fouling, all other things being equal.

You can order different grid size screen wire from McMasters.com. 40 tpi(mesh) grid for 3Fg; 24 tpi (mesh)grid for 2Fg; 14 tpi(Mesh)grid for Fg. If you want to save 4Fg priming powder and have it also consistent, then buy some 60 tpi( mesh) grid screening wire.

I don't see any necessity to screen priming powder, as its ONLY USED in flintlock pans, and therefore burns outside the barrel of a flintlock, and poses no danger from higher pressures that occur when burning "fines". :hmm:

From the factory, Swiss powders burn the cleanest, because they use a metric system to measure their granule sizing, resulting in a small granule size compared to Goex, and other brands. The Swiss powder also uses a slightly higher percentage of Potassium Nitrate in the powder, which causes the higher pressure and velocity for a comparable volume of powder when compared to Goex. And, the Swiss pride themselves in using a pure form of charcoal in making their powder, obtained from certain balkan countries, which is not used here by Goex. There is no comparison between Swiss and Goex on that issue, as the pure carbon used by the Swiss produces less garbage in the powder residue, after the shot is fired. Swiss powders also cost about twice as much as Goex, and other brands.

You can justify using Swiss powder if you are a match shooter, trying to win an important shooting match title here in the USA. I can't justify the higher cost for hunting, or "Plinking" that I do.

I use Goex simply because its American made, and I want us all to have an American source of powder, rather than letting an anti-gun President use his Executive powers to stop the importation of foreign-made black powder, and make my MLers paper weights and wall hangers.

I make no commment about Triple 7, or Am. Pioneer, powder, as I don't use them, and never will. The pioneer powder was specifically created for used in pistol cartridges, ignited by modern primers, --- NOT IN MUZLELOADERS. The Triple 7 product was designed to be used in those In-L**e Zip Guns that we don't talk about on this forum. Again, its designed to be ignited by shotgun primers- Not by percussion caps. NONE of the substitute powders is designed to be used in flintlocks, unless "Booster" charges of real black powder are poured down the barrel FIRST, to help ignite the substitute powder.

If you are asking about the cleanest SMOKELESS powder to use in your "Zip gun", this is the wrong forum to be asking that question. If you clarify that request, I am sure that some member here will sent you a Private Topic reply, giving you his opinion. We have members here who shoot both Traditional sidelock mlers, and those zip guns. We simply don't talk about the latter here. :hatsoff: :thumbsup:

 

[lightle man]

can you use preformed pelets in a old rifle though

 

[Zonie]

The pre formed pellets sometimes work fairly poorly in the sidelock rifles that have a chambered or patent breech if they are loaded with the starting primer end towards the breech.

(They were made for guns that have their primer right at the rear of the pellet so they have a real black powder priming charge glued to the rear of them.)

More often than not, the hot gasses from the percussion cap has cooled so much by the time it gets to the pellet that the priming powder won't ignite.

In a sidelock gun that uses a side drum installed directly into the side of the barrel, pellets seldom fire. That is because the flame from the nipple/drum is directed directly into the side of the pellet where there is no starting or priming powder.

Pellets also cost an arm and a leg. At least 3 times more expensive than loose powder.

Using pellets also greatly limits the shooters ability to adjust the powder charge for the most accurate shooting. For instance, if a gun shoots great with a 80 grain powder load and not worth a darn with a 100 grain load, what's a person who has a couple of 50 grain pellets going to load with?

 

[lightle man]

are there enaey places that sell legitiment black powder not over the internet or would i have to make it to get it other than the internet?

 

[Zonie]

Your best bet is a local gun store but many of them don't want to bother with storing it.

Real black powder requires the store to lock it up in a Federally approved storage box.
They cannot sit a can of it on a shelf with the rest of their powder and the only way to find out if they have it is to ask.

Often, even the employees in the store don't know they have it so be sure to ask the stores owner or the manager.

More gun stores won't have it than the number of those who do but while your asking, if the store your talking to doesn't have it, be sure to ask them if they know of a store in your area that does.
Often they need to be asked before they tell you about one of their competitors.

Some Cabela's and Bass Pro stores also have it but remember, you have to ask for it.

There are enough black powder cartridge rifle shooters and muzzleloaders in my area so one store always has it.
If you are at a shooting range and see a black powder cartridge rifle shooter, ask him where he gets his powder.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

i mean smoak less

Smokeless powder in a muzzleloader will kill you.

Watch this to see what it does,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18

 

[Dphar]

Unless Boar-dilly was talkin' about getting that Savage Model that uses smokeless. :barf:

Like this one? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/18/savage-muzzleloader-kaboom/

Probably a 416 stainless barrel, not the best barrel steel.... Doubt it was loading error. But thats what it will be called.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

i mean smoak less

Smokeless powder in a muzzleloader will kill you.

Watch this to see what it does,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18[/quote]


Note the difference in the way the barrels reacted in the first test. The barrels that broke and shed large pieces were brittle.
The one that folded forward the, knight I think, was more ductile and was the better and safer barrel IMO.
But free machining 416, a brittle stainless is common in many modern stainless CF guns as well.
Brittle barrels are common in many "custom" traditional ML barrels as well. Free machining steels machine much easier and produce a better finish and less tool wear. But they are more failure prone. Only a few makers actually use a suitable alloy of the proper grade.

They used HS6 in a gross overload to get maximum effect as well.

Dan

 

[Kentuckywindage]

The "cleanest" powder I've ever found that you can shoot from a caplock is American Pioneer Powder. This stuff almost makes the barrel "slipperier" rather than fowling it. I don't know what is in or not in it, but the HUGE drawback is that w/90 grs behind a .54 roundball I chrono'd it at only 1000 fps, give or take. The same load with 777 is 2000 fps give or take.

If you are getting 2,000 FPS with a 223gr round ball and only 90gr T7, i'd say you need to buy a new chronograph because its messed up badly.

 

[Ron_T.]

Another "vote" for Swiss Black Powder. I shoot Swiss FFFg BP in both of my .50 caliber cap-locks and my .50 caliber flintlock Long rifle as well, but here is the "catch".

While Swiss is much cleaner shooting than Goex, it is also almost TWICE the cost... $22 a pound (Swiss) vs. $14 a pound (Goex) down at Friendship last year, but I heard both powders went UP this summer about $1 per pound (i.e., $23 vs. $15 per pound), but I do not "know" that to be a fact myself... just what I've heard from guys who attended the Summer and Fall Rendezvous at Friendship.

I am still shooting the Swiss BP because it doesn't clog up my barrel nearly as fast and Swiss cleans up MUCH faster & easier than Goex... but I have to admit the extra COST is bothering me.

What has been said about using less of the Swiss BP to attain the SAME muzzle velocity as a load of Goex is correct, but as far as I can determine, the "savings" is only about 10%-15% in the amount of powder required whereas the extra cost of Swiss BP is considerably GREATER (like 35%) than that percentage of the amount of savings of powder (10% to 15%).

And so, it really depends on how much "value" you you place on your cleaning time and effort... and how much "value" you put on NOT having to do a "barrel wipe" with a spit patch as often so you can "ram-a-load" down the barrel without a lot of resistance due to the accumulated "crud".

Since I'm still using Swiss BP... that tends to "tell you" something, no? :v


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

 

[Dphar]

The "cleanest" powder I've ever found that you can shoot from a caplock is American Pioneer Powder. This stuff almost makes the barrel "slipperier" rather than fowling it. I don't know what is in or not in it, but the HUGE drawback is that w/90 grs behind a .54 roundball I chrono'd it at only 1000 fps, give or take. The same load with 777 is 2000 fps give or take.

If you are getting 2,000 FPS with a 223gr round ball and only 90gr T7, i'd say you need to buy a new chronograph because its messed up badly.

t-7 is hotter than BP and Pyrodex and is really not designed for sidelock guns. It best with the primer ignition inlines.
90+ gr weight of FFF Swiss will almost equal this from my 54 caliber so I would say it was correct.

Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

You are in Indiana. I'll bet there are a couple NMLRA charter clubs within easy driving distance of your home. The clubs, and the Field Reps, are listed in the NMLRA magazine, Muzzle Blasts. You have resources that can help you find black powder at current prices.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

In my experience the only reason one would need the "cleanest" powder, meaning the one the leaves the lowest amount of fouling, is either in a revolver shooting black powder, including those in CAS that shoot BP cartridges..., or if you are shooting a timed target event, where you have to load multiple rounds and are not given enough time to swab after a couple or three shots, etc.

Add to that the other factors, as to type of lube, and humidity, and it does vary quite a lot.

If you are concerned with simple range swabbing when sighting in or target shooting, OR you are talking about cleaning after a day of hunting, there is no advantage from my experience to any powder nor synthetic. You still have to put water down the bore, you still have to use patches, you have to dry the bore, and you have to grease/oil the bore. It takes me the same amount of time if I use Pyrodex, Swiss, Diamondback, or Goex. I use beeswax and olive oil for a lube when not spit patching, and I use Ballistol for oiling.

Perhaps it would be better to experiment with different lubes instead of different powders?

LD

 

[ebiggs1]

I really see it as a moot point. You have to go through the cleaning ritual with no matter which powder you choose. What does it matter if you had to spend 10 minutes cleaning or 12? The bottom line is you still have to clean the gun. :hmm:

 

[Pacobillie]

The "cleanest" powder I've ever found that you can shoot from a caplock is American Pioneer Powder. This stuff almost makes the barrel "slipperier" rather than fowling it. I don't know what is in or not in it, but the HUGE drawback is that w/90 grs behind a .54 roundball I chrono'd it at only 1000 fps, give or take. The same load with 777 is 2000 fps give or take. I'm just not willing to give up 1000 fps for any amount of cleanliness! I also found that ignition in small bores, like my .32 or .36 was inconsistent with Pioneer.

While others here have the experience that 777 is "cleaner" than real bp, I haven't found that in my shooting. However, 777 does not have that strong sulphur smell, which sure makes my wife happier when I clean guns in the house. Overall, for a caplock, I don't think 777 can be beat and you can buy it all over, even at big-box mart.

I do use Goex in my flintlock as Hodgen doesn't even recommend 777 in a flintlock unless you pour a little real bp in first, and who's going to mess around with that.

I have tried Jim Shockey's Gold, made by APP. It is very clean indeed; and it ignites reliably, but those are about the only good thing that can be said about it.

It is expensive, very inconsistent, and not very potent.

 

[Nappers]

Ahh come get dirty with us!

Agreed! :thumbsup:

I have only used Goex brand powders and my guns are cleaned after shooting. I think you would have to clean after shooting any powder.....

That's part of the fun I think!

 

[Golfswithwolves]

I recall an old Eastwood Western/Musical (!) movie called "Paint Your Wagon"- Clint and Lee Marvin sang in it! Anyway, one of the songs they sang had the main line as "The best things in life are dirty". Same thing goes for powder I reckon.

 

[stone knife]

Ahh come get dirty with us!

Yep I tried all the other garbage and just as soon clean up the real stuff, keeps the wife away :blah: