Colt 1860 Vs Remington New Model

[Spartan64]

I've settled on these two contenders as my first big bore percussion pistol. I'm probably opening up a hornets nest, but which one would you recommend? Thanks

The Remington is a superior mechanical design. The Colts have a more iconic silhoutte. Both are fun to shoot... If you can hold both and see what fits your hand better.

 

[Bad Karma]

It probably had to do with perceived durability, price, field maintenance, Ordnance Generals thought it was better to "modernize" with solid frame revolvers , however they also accepted S&W's break top design that used a shorter cartridge so there's no rhyme or reason to the Govts criteria a lot of times . It may have been psychological on their part, that they didn't want cartridge open tops because they wanted to move away from "old" designs used in the last war and soldiers would feel better using a "new and improved " revolver. I always found it interesting that Remington cartridge revolvers were never purchased by the Govt when they basically made a cartridge version of the 1858 that was a good gun.

This was the same Govt that thought a repeating rifle like one of the tubular magazine bolt actions they could of chose would result in soldiers firing too fast and wasting ammunition, a mindset that carried over well into the smokeless era with the insistence on magazine cutoffs for rifles. The trapdoor was obsolete as soon as it was accepted but we used them in some Guard units until WWI

Weapons are always selected by old Generals in their 70s who are still fighting a war behind the current one

According to Pate the War Departments primary complaint against the open top was that the wedge sometimes required replacement. Because the wedge and the barrel lug were not hardened while the frame and arbor were it’s easy to see that they could become battered in use so the government placed orders for replacement barrels and wedges but that’s about it. (BTW, this is the primary reason I don’t believe that the originals had arbors fitted to barrels. How exactly was that accomplished since the frame was married to a cylinder and barrel only after the frame was hardened. My grandfathers pistol has an arbor short by about .012”. It’s in excellent condition, the bluing is less than 30% but the case colors are still about 40%..) At any rate. Using todays metallurgy and manufacturing technology, the open top is the equal of any revolver design.

The b/c gap flame would be dangerous

Why? Once set for .002” end shake it wouldn’t be any worse than a S&W… and no chance of flame cutting the top strap…

 

[Huasser1]

It’s kinda like choosing between a Ford or a Dodge, no right answer. Chances are you are going to get them both pretty soon.

With that said, the Remington copy is a little more user friendly for a beginner.

I'd go with schwinn

 

[dylan84]

Absolutely. It's what lead up to me tuning revolvers. I can't shoot bp in my county ( outdoors or indoors) so it's drive to another county or to a range 10 minutes from my house . . . I chose the latter !!
As stated, "smokyless" is a lot more punishing than bp so that lead to learning the how's and why's that will make these revolvers keep the same tolerances AFTER a range trip that they had before . . . otherwise, it's a fast trip to paper weight status.

Mike

Is that just at ranges that you cannot shoot black powder or private land also? That is interesting that they wouldn't allow bp. Thanks for your comments btw learning a lot about these revolvers!

 

[45D]

According to Pate the War Departments primary complaint against the open top was that the wedge sometimes required replacement. Because the wedge and the barrel lug were not hardened while the frame and arbor were it’s easy to see that they could become battered in use so the government placed orders for replacement barrels and wedges but that’s about it. (BTW, this is the primary reason I don’t believe that the originals had arbors fitted to barrels. How exactly was that accomplished since the frame was married to a cylinder and barrel only after the frame was hardened.

You don't think that folks would get the idea that if they just put the wedge in with "thumb pressure it will be easier to remove" like some do today? It doesn't take many shots with a loose wedge to render it pretty useless. I know back in the 80's when I shot my Walker a lot, it would chew up wedges so bad that I would have to use a hammer and a punch to drive it out. I bought a lllllllot of wedges back then!! Lol

I'm pretty positive that if I shot my revolvers with a loose wedge, metal would move immediately. ( In fact, I know it will. That's why I do what I do) I also know that bp is more forgiving than that "smokyless" powder. It definitely leads one to ramp up the "learning curve" quickly or you'll "fix" something with every trip to the range.

Interesting, what year was your grandfather's pistola made? I've worked on 2 that were both 1863 production and 2 that were conversions ( so 1872/73ish). They had arbors that fit.
Lastly, I don't know what Colt's method for fitting was. Likewise, I don't know exactly how Pietta does either. It may be purely modern machining techniques.

Why? Once set for .002” end shake it wouldn’t be any worse than a S&W… and no chance of flame cutting the top strap…

This is very true!
I've mentioned how I think it's entirely possible to make an open-top equivalent of the Ruger BH (or ROA if you like ) using today's materials !

Mike

 

[earlwb]

There are some good points made here. Someone needs to really make a modern caliber 1860 style open top gun in say . 44 magnum. Then shoot the heck out of it to see what happens. The modern materials may render it all a moot point. But no top strap for flame cutting would be a big plus. It may open up a entirely new marketing possibility.

 

[45D]

Is that just at ranges that you cannot shoot black powder or private land also? That is interesting that they wouldn't allow bp. Thanks for your comments btw learning a lot about these revolvers!

My county is too populated to shoot anything outdoors (unless for self defense of course) and indoor ranges don't like bp sparks setting unburnt smokeless powder on fire!! Lol !! So, unmentionables it is!!!
I appreciate the kind words sir!

Mike

 

[Bad Karma]

You don't think that folks would get the idea that if they just put the wedge in with "thumb pressure it will be easier to remove" like some do today? It doesn't take many shots with a loose wedge to render it pretty useless. I know back in the 80's when I shot my Walker a lot, it would chew up wedges so bad that I would have to use a hammer and a punch to drive it out. I bought a lllllllot of wedges back then!! Lol

I'm pretty positive that if I shot my revolvers with a loose wedge, metal would move immediately. ( In fact, I know it will. That's why I do what I do) I also know that bp is more forgiving than that "smokyless" powder. It definitely leads one to ramp up the "learning curve" quickly or you'll "fix" something with every trip to the range.

Interesting, what year was your grandfather's pistola made? I've worked on 2 that were both 1863 production and 2 that were conversions ( so 1872/73ish). They had arbors that fit.
Lastly, I don't know what Colt's method for fitting was. Likewise, I don't know exactly how Pietta does either. It may be purely modern machining techniques.

This is very true!
I've mentioned how I think it's entirely possible to make an open-top equivalent of the Ruger BH (or ROA if you like ) using today's materials !

Mike

Born in 1862 Mike. I wish I had opportunities to examine more originals but when I did I wasn’t aware that folks considered the arbor fit to be a critical condition so I didn’t pay enough attention. There are quite a few more questions than answers surrounding these old guns, how they were built, etc. but they’re an underrated platform for sure and in my opinion the most elegant revolvers ever made. I’m including all of the type, from 1860 to the end of the run.

 

[45D]

There are some good points made here. Someone needs to really make a modern caliber 1860 style open top gun in say . 44 magnum. Then shoot the heck out of it to see what happens. The modern materials may render it all a moot point. But no top strap for flame cutting would be a big plus. It may open up a entirely new marketing possibility.

That's kinda what I'm doing with my Dragoons and Army's using 45C and 45acp . . .

Mike

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I think a lot of people here are just sun-consciously drawn to the steam punk look of open-top platforms. Come on, now. Be honest. It has a certain primitive elegance that you would see in a sci-fi/fantasy airbrushed graphic novel. While I doubt that many here have ever read such novels, the thing that made them cool when I saw them in the late '80s to early '90s is still an element of our respective psyches, and that element has influenced what you all like about the Colts.

Actually, as has been said, it's about the handling. The Remington's ergonomics suffer when compared to the Colt. And if the Colt design is so weak, how is it that so many have survived and are still being fired today. It appears that the difference in strength is so small (if it exists) as to be meaningless.

 

[TrapperDude]

Actually, as has been said, it's about the handling. The Remington's ergonomics suffer when compared to the Colt. And if the Colt design is so weak, how is it that so many have survived and are still being fired today. It appears that the difference in strength is so small (if it exists) is so insignificant as to be meaningless.

For BP pressures, the strength difference seems academic, only. Handling-wise, though, they both handle nicely. If you put your pinky under the Remington grip, it actually points very naturally. Like pointing your finger.

 

[GYJ]

IMHO, the Remington is the better gun.......on paper. In owning, handling, shooting and carrying them, give me a Colt pattern sixgun any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I just picked up Colt open top sixgun #24 yesterday. Which includes everything from the 1849 and 1862 Pocket models to the Navies, Armies, Walker and Dragoon. Compared to two Pietta Remingtons that I've never shot.

If you just used up all of your ammo on some hired "deputies" and have to reload when you face down the corrupt owner of a strip mining operation, then you definitely need to remove the cylinder so you can swap in a new one as you walk towards him with a menacing glare on your face.

I think Josey Wales had a better solution to that situation than The Preacher.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

So, a cylinder in a top strap revolver is somehow stronger than one in an open top . . . how's that?


Well, you can picture what you want . . . I'm already shooting ( as a normal diet) some high psi rounds in an Uberti '60 Army with a standard "Italian steel" arbor. It's definitely not out of the question for "Ruger only loads" in a Dragoon platform revolver.

I have absolutely no interest in any .50 cal revolver from anybody.

Velocity and power . . . see above.
It's cost, not ability.

Somebody mentioned in a thread recently about comparing "old design" with modern technology . . . see above.

Mike

Mike, I assume your opinion is based on your degrees and years of experience in Engineering and Metallurgy?

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Is that just at ranges that you cannot shoot black powder or private land also? That is interesting that they wouldn't allow bp. Thanks for your comments btw learning a lot about these revolvers!

Many ranges do not allow BP, because it is slow to reload etc and holds up other shooters etc, and other shooters complain about the smoke & smell etc. It is what it is.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

"My county is too populated to shoot anything outdoors (unless for self defense of course) and indoor ranges don't like bp sparks setting unburnt smokeless powder on fire!!"
Mike, you also mention that the population is too dense.

Where is this?

 

[Rich44]

Hands down winner is COLT 1860

 

[Snake Pleskin]

"My county is too populated to shoot anything outdoors (unless for self defense of course) and indoor ranges don't like bp sparks setting unburnt smokeless powder on fire!!"
Mike, you also mention that the population is too dense.

Where is this?

I know Cave Creek and Whiskey Row. I lived in Troon.

 

[45D]

"My county is too populated to shoot anything outdoors (unless for self defense of course) and indoor ranges don't like bp sparks setting unburnt smokeless powder on fire!!"
Mike, you also mention that the population is too dense.

Where is this?

Really? I take it you don't believe me?
There are actually places in the USA that the density of a city or county is to a point that just firing a weapon may cause injury to a person. That leads to ordinances against certain things ( like endangering your neighbors ?). I envy you folks that can shoot off the front or back porch where you live but I don't live there. I also don't have time to drive to a neighboring county just to shoot bp . . . and I'm fine with it. My situation allowed me the opportunity to start doing what I do now for the last 10+ yrs.

Hope that's good enough.

Mike

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Really? I take it you don't believe me?
There are actually places in the USA that the density of a city or county is to a point that just firing a weapon may cause injury to a person. That leads to ordinances against certain things ( like endangering your neighbors ?). I envy you folks that can shoot off the front or back porch where you live but I don't live there. I also don't have time to drive to a neighboring county just to shoot bp . . . and I'm fine with it. My situation allowed me the opportunity to start doing what I do now for the last 10+ yrs.

Hope that's good enough.

Mike

I do not think he was saying he did not believe you. He is just curious where you would be located that the density etc would prevent you from shooting etc. The fact is there are probably more places where "you" can't shoot then where we can shoot anymore! I live in Aiken, SC and I can't shoot in my neighbor hood either. I drive 30 miles each way to shoot, because most of the land around me is 'privately owned" I wish I had 20 acres to shoot on too!

 

[TrapperDude]

I do not think he was saying he did not believe you. He is just curious where you would be located that the density etc would prevent you from shooting etc. The fact is there are probably more places where "you" can't shoot then where we can shoot anymore! I live in Aiken, SC and I can't shoot in my neighbor hood either. I drive 30 miles each way to shoot, because most of the land around me is 'privately owned" I wish I had 20 acres to shoot on too!

I lived in Columbia for a while and commuted to Shaw AFB in Sumter. To go shooting, the quick trips were to the Palmetto State Armory indoor range where they had an hourly fee. If I wanted to shoot outdoors for as long as I wanted (for only $5.00!), I had to drive 50 miles towards the area of Sumter to use the DNR range. I really liked that one.