Combination Rod Ends/Jegs and Combination Tools, Yea or Nay?

[Asron87]

First post, kind of new to muzzleloading firearms. Cannons are my main hobby but I'd like to branch out a little bit. I've had a .50 cal Traditions Trapper Pistol for a few years but only shot it a few times. I recently received my dads old .45 cal CVA Mountain Rifle he assembled from one of CVA's first kits, it's made in the USA. I'm also trying to get my hands on a used .45 cal Derringer that was assembled from a kit. I've been looking into making or ordering a custom made ramrods/cleaning/range rods. One of them I'm looking at has a loading/cleaning jag that covers a ball pulling screw. I'm also looking for a way to add a worm end if possible. I'm thinking of making one out of delrin for my .45 Mountain Rifle. I'd like to make one for my .50 cal Traditions Trapper Pistol but I might use brass instead. I'd prefer they fit under the barrel and can have a handle turned on for when I need to pull a ball. If I have extra derlin I might use it for a ball starter or should I use brass? Are brass rods ok for pulling a ball? Any ideas or recommendations is greatly appreciated.

I'm also looking for a combination tool Like the Enfield Combination Tool. Any recommendations for a combo tool?

Combo Jag: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/585/2
Worm Attachment: https://luckybag.us/RamrodTips.html

Combo Tool: https://www.atlantacutlery.com/replica-enfield-combination-musket-tool

 

[French Colonial]

Tracks ball pullers with the brass collars are a much better option.... why do you ask?

Well, without the collar the screw will typically go to the side and screw in between the barrel and the side of the ball, not only is this not good for the barrel but when you pull on the ball your pulling on the side of it and the ball is trying to wedge sideways. Much better for the screw to go in the middle of the ball which the proper size brass collar will guarantee.

I have seen the covered screws like you show on original shotgun ramrods.

 

[wiscoaster]

I wasn't familiar with the product you mentioned - delrin - so I spent a few minutes doing a little research. One of its claims is that it can be used to replace parts made from metal. Is delrin harder or softer than steel? You know brass is softer and unlikely to damage your bore or muzzle. If delrin is harder than the steel that your barrels are made from, then I'd be hesitant to use it for a tool you're going to have coming into contact with the bore and muzzle.

The combo tips look pretty cool, but methinks overly complex; simple is best, and I prefer screw-on interchangeable tips. Just my opinion. No worries trying something different.

 

[Asron87]

Delrin Is softer and flexible. The biggest complaint is that some people think it is too flexible and that it will also touch the sides of the rifle. The main thing I want is rod that I can pull a ball with. And delrin is pretty damn indistructractable so that's a plus for when we go out shooting. Me and my brother have some cannons/mortars that we take out for a weekend. I was hoping to add some muzzleloaders to the shoot. I'll end up getting a hickory ramrod for it later but for now I think I'll be going with a delrin to replace the current ramrod on the rifle. I have a brass rod I think I'll use as a ball puller for my pistols but I'm open to ideas on a pistol rod/ball starter.

 

[longcruise]

First post, kind of new to muzzleloading firearms. Cannons are my main hobby but I'd like to branch out a little bit. I've had a .50 cal Traditions Trapper Pistol for a few years but only shot it a few times. I recently received my dads old .45 cal CVA Mountain Rifle he assembled from one of CVA's first kits, it's made in the USA. I'm also trying to get my hands on a used .45 cal Derringer that was assembled from a kit. I've been looking into making or ordering a custom made ramrods/cleaning/range rods. One of them I'm looking at has a loading/cleaning jag that covers a ball pulling screw. I'm also looking for a way to add a worm end if possible. I'm thinking of making one out of delrin for my .45 Mountain Rifle. I'd like to make one for my .50 cal Traditions Trapper Pistol but I might use brass instead. I'd prefer they fit under the barrel and can have a handle turned on for when I need to pull a ball. If I have extra derlin I might use it for a ball starter or should I use brass? Are brass rods ok for pulling a ball? Any ideas or recommendations is greatly appreciated.

I'm also looking for a combination tool Like the Enfield Combination Tool. Any recommendations for a combo tool?

Combo Jag: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/585/2
Worm Attachment: https://luckybag.us/RamrodTips.html

Combo Tool: https://www.atlantacutlery.com/replica-enfield-combination-musket-tool

You might be overcomplicating this. OTOH, I might not understand exactly what you want to do.

What I do is make my own on board rods with hickory. Both ends have a cupped threaded rod end attached. In my bag is a file handle with a short metal rod attached and pinned. The end of that short (5") rod has a threaded rod tip soldered and pinned with a short length of threaded rod soldered into the threads. That's used as a handle and converts your on board rod into an efficient "range rod" for cleaning in the field if needed and to use as a patch retriever or ball puller in the field.

A range rod is too easy to make. Once you've made one you will never consider buying one again. For most calibers you can use a 5/16" steel or brass rod from the hardware store, a 3/8" OD threaded rod tip is a perfect fit to the 5/16 rod. So pin and solder or epoxy the rod. Slide a bore guide onto the rod and pin and epoxy your choice of handle to it and Viola! Range rod.

 

[Asron87]

That's what I'll do for my pistol. But I'm still going to buy a delrin range rod for the rifle. I'd like to try one out. One of them is offered with a combination end that I was thinking about getting.

 

[azmntman]

Delrin Is softer and flexible. The biggest complaint is that some people think it is too flexible and that it will also touch the sides of the rifle. The main thing I want is rod that I can pull a ball with. And delrin is pretty damn indistructractable so that's a plus for when we go out shooting. Me and my brother have some cannons/mortars that we take out for a weekend. I was hoping to add some muzzleloaders to the shoot. I'll end up getting a hickory ramrod for it later but for now I think I'll be going with a delrin to replace the current ramrod on the rifle. I have a brass rod I think I'll use as a ball puller for my pistols but I'm open to ideas on a pistol rod/ball starter.

Hmmm, I have yet to launch a ramrod. Wondering these are reusable in that sense? I know, I know, it won't be long now. Dry ball an average of all the time but still waiting to launch a ramrod. Be nice if they were reusable. The hickories that have made the trip don't do well per reports.....

 

[French Colonial]

I have a delrin rod that I used constantly when I was heavy into BPCRS, threaded on both ends and used it for wiping between shots and cleaning.

They are pretty much indestructible, machine and hold threads well and will not hurt your bore in any way. I always liked the flexibility as I never had to worry about it breaking no matter how much I abused it.

 

[Notchy Bob]

The covered ball screw that Track carries is a cool accessory. I have seen these on antique shotgun ramrods, but they were also found on some mid-19th century “plains” rifles. The original ramrod on the James Beckwourth rifle has one. They call it a “ball screw,” but it will also retrieve a lost patch.

However, I agree with @French Colonial regarding the ball screw with a collar to fit your bore, to keep the screw centered. As he said, this is important. In addition, the collared ball screws from Track are the best. The screw has a very sharp point and sharp-edged threads, with the proper taper.

I have no personal experience with the jags that attach to the covered ball screws. I have admired them on Track’s website, but have not tried them. One caveat may be that if you put that covered ball screw on your ramrod and get the jag for it, that jag and ball screw are the only attachments that will work on your ramrod. If you use a simple ferrule with a female thread, you can screw any accessory you want in there.

Delrin rods have been around for years. I have one for a T/C Seneca, but I’ve never used it. I’m sure they are wonderful, but I’ve been satisfied with my home-made hickory range rods. I think the barrel and muzzle wear that people warn against is exaggerated. Just keep the rod clean. I make double-ended ones with 8-32 female threads on one end and 10-32 on the other for my rifles, and I plan to make one with 10-32 on one end and 5/16-27 on the other (thanks, @flconch53 !) for my 20 gauge fowling piece when I get to it. I have used hickory rods for pulling balls and they get the job done, although I take great pains to ensure the threaded ferrules are securely attached.

As a side note, I want to offer a few comments about the old CVA guns. The ramrods are 9mm in diameter. The ramrod pipes or thimbles are affixed to the barrel rib with M4-.7 screws, threaded into the wall of each thimble. The thimbles are strong and heavy-duty, with thick walls, and an inside diameter of slightly over 3/8”. The mounting screws only have maybe 1 or 1-1/2 threads engaging each thimble, and they protrude into the lumen or bore of the thimble slightly, which is why CVA used a smaller, 9mm ramrod. They put in a curving spring with a hook on the end down in the ramrod channel to engage that little knob on the distal end of the CVA ramrod, to hold the rod in the gun. That retention spring works too well… I have to get a good grip and jerk the rod to get it out. I have a .50 caliber CVA Mountain Rifle, a .58 caliber Big Bore Mountain Rifle, and a .50 caliber CVA Hawken Pistol. They are all made that way, and I don’t like it. So, I recently got to work, starting with the Big Bore. I soldered the ramrod pipes onto the rib with low-temperature, high-strength Stay-Brite silver solder, to get rid of those pesky screws, and made a new, beefier hickory rod that tapers from just under 1/2” to 3/8” where it enters the upper pipe. The driving end of the rod is slightly dished or concaved to fit the ball, and has no metal fitting. None is needed. The body of the rod stays at 3/8” until the last 5”-6”, where it tapers down to 9mm. It has a 9mm ferrule on the end, securely epoxied and pinned, with 10-32 female threads. This rod fits the thimbles, and does not rattle. However, it is not tight, and has room to swell if it gets soaked. It stays in place but is easy to withdraw. It is straight, strong, and stiff, and is easier to hold than the smaller diameter EOM rod. Coincidentally, I just finished it yesterday. While I have not range-tested it yet, I’m pretty happy with how it turned out, and plan to give my other CVAs similar treatment, starting with 7/16” rods for the .50 caliber guns and tapering them as above.

Anyway, range rods are easily over-thought. Hickory, Delrin, and brass all work.

Best of luck to you!

Notchy Bob

 

[wiscoaster]

...

Anyway, range rods are easily over-thought. Hickory, Delrin, and brass all work.

...

 

[Asron87]

The covered ball screw that Track carries is a cool accessory. I have seen these on antique shotgun ramrods, but they were also found on some mid-19th century “plains” rifles. The original ramrod on the James Beckwourth rifle has one. They call it a “ball screw,” but it will also retrieve a lost patch.

However, I agree with @French Colonial regarding the ball screw with a collar to fit your bore, to keep the screw centered. As he said, this is important. In addition, the collared ball screws from Track are the best. The screw has a very sharp point and sharp-edged threads, with the proper taper.

I have no personal experience with the jags that attach to the covered ball screws. I have admired them on Track’s website, but have not tried them. One caveat may be that if you put that covered ball screw on your ramrod and get the jag for it, that jag and ball screw are the only attachments that will work on your ramrod. If you use a simple ferrule with a female thread, you can screw any accessory you want in there.

Delrin rods have been around for years. I have one for a T/C Seneca, but I’ve never used it. I’m sure they are wonderful, but I’ve been satisfied with my home-made hickory range rods. I think the barrel and muzzle wear that people warn against is exaggerated. Just keep the rod clean. I make double-ended ones with 8-32 female threads on one end and 10-32 on the other for my rifles, and I plan to make one with 10-32 on one end and 5/16-27 on the other (thanks, @flconch53 !) for my 20 gauge fowling piece when I get to it. I have used hickory rods for pulling balls and they get the job done, although I take great pains to ensure the threaded ferrules are securely attached.

As a side note, I want to offer a few comments about the old CVA guns. The ramrods are 9mm in diameter. The ramrod pipes or thimbles are affixed to the barrel rib with M4-.7 screws, threaded into the wall of each thimble. The thimbles are strong and heavy-duty, with thick walls, and an inside diameter of slightly over 3/8”. The mounting screws only have maybe 1 or 1-1/2 threads engaging each thimble, and they protrude into the lumen or bore of the thimble slightly, which is why CVA used a smaller, 9mm ramrod. They put in a curving spring with a hook on the end down in the ramrod channel to engage that little knob on the distal end of the CVA ramrod, to hold the rod in the gun. That retention spring works too well… I have to get a good grip and jerk the rod to get it out. I have a .50 caliber CVA Mountain Rifle, a .58 caliber Big Bore Mountain Rifle, and a .50 caliber CVA Hawken Pistol. They are all made that way, and I don’t like it. So, I recently got to work, starting with the Big Bore. I soldered the ramrod pipes onto the rib with low-temperature, high-strength Stay-Brite silver solder, to get rid of those pesky screws, and made a new, beefier hickory rod that tapers from just under 1/2” to 3/8” where it enters the upper pipe. The driving end of the rod is slightly dished or concaved to fit the ball, and has no metal fitting. None is needed. The body of the rod stays at 3/8” until the last 5”-6”, where it tapers down to 9mm. It has a 9mm ferrule on the end, securely epoxied and pinned, with 10-32 female threads. This rod fits the thimbles, and does not rattle. However, it is not tight, and has room to swell if it gets soaked. It stays in place but is easy to withdraw. It is straight, strong, and stiff, and is easier to hold than the smaller diameter EOM rod. Coincidentally, I just finished it yesterday. While I have not range-tested it yet, I’m pretty happy with how it turned out, and plan to give my other CVAs similar treatment, starting with 7/16” rods for the .50 caliber guns and tapering them as above.

Anyway, range rods are easily over-thought. Hickory, Delrin, and brass all work.

Best of luck to you!

Notchy Bob

Oh man, can you post some pictures of that? I plan on dressing up my dads CVA as much as I can. I'd like to restain the stock to something darker and then replace as many things as I can with brass. I'd also like to blue or brown the barrel. I'm open for any recommendations, tips, or help of any kind for this project.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have several of the covered screw tips. These are handy for pulling patches. If pulling a ball, I thread a patch through the screw tip and wrap the patch around the rod to keep it centered so the screw tip enters the center of the ball. I also have a short, threaded end for the other tip to use as a handle to pull a dry ball or load from my fowling gun.

 

[Rebel bull]

i have been building range rods for friends and family for 30 years for 40 cal and larger i use only 3/8" brass rod the end is taped 10/32 for attaching what ever the handles are threaded on glued and then pinned these are specifically made for use at shooting at the range not hunting. for hunting I use the Treso or Track fiberglass rod sized and cut to fit in the thimbles of my rifle ( my hunting gun is not my competition gun which all still have their factory rods attached for looks only ) the only other comment is don't launch your fiberglass/delron or even wood rod it's like shooting a 500 grain bullet for felt recoil

 

[Grenadier1758]

Got to do better editing of my posts. I thread the screw tip through the patch and the wrap the secure patch around the rod to center the ball pulling screw in the barrel.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Hmmm, I have yet to launch a ramrod. Wondering these are reusable in that sense? I know, I know, it won't be long now. Dry ball an average of all the time but still waiting to launch a ramrod. Be nice if they were reusable. The hickories that have made the trip don't do well per reports.....

Reusable not so much, says two rookie mistakes .36

 

[azmntman]

I always replace, always for with ramrod in rifle duplicating field conditions

 

[new2bp]

For range use I have a one piece 3/8" brass rod that is tapped for 10-32 stuff at one end and has a nice metal T handle on the other. Use for cleaning, etc. as well. Tackle box full of BP specific shooting supplies - powder, caps, etc. plus a couple of different style worms, jags, brushes, bullet pullers, etc.

 

[sportster73hp]

I had been shooting my investarms 45 rifle for a couple of years when one day i discovered the under barrel ramrod had been altered or replaced as the ferrel was a 38 special case with the rim removed and primer hole tapped to 10-32.

 

[Rifleman1776]

To answer the original question: IMHO those combo units are gimkrakies and gadgets. Might work OK but have weak spots subject to bending and breaking. As for Delrin, I used to make and sell Delring rods. It is a soft, safe, unbreakable material that I have long promoted for safe and reliable ml use. It is not 'pc' but for most uses safety trumps that issue. Yer choice.