Comparing some 2F and 3F hunting load velocities

[roundball]

Velocity comparisons between 100 & 120 grains Goex 2F and 3F

GM .62cal/.20ga Flint ”˜Rifled’ barrel
.020" Oxyoke prelubed pillow ticking
.600"/325grn cast lead balls
Wiped the bore after every shot
Pact Pro Chronograph at 15 feet

100grns Goex 2F = 1270 fps
100grns Goex 3F = 1365 fps

120grns Goex 2F = 1340 fps
120grns Goex 3F = 1430 fps

Chronographs are an outstanding tool to get actual facts, allowing erroneous theories, formulas, old wives tales, that are often put forth / repeated as gospel, to be disproved / ignored.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Facts ain't no fun. :td:
We would rather argue. :wink:
Really, thanks for the info. Very interesting.
Do you have any tests for Goex vs. Swiss?

 

[roundball]

Really, thanks for the info. Very interesting.
Do you have any tests for Goex vs. Swiss?

Sure don't...Goex guy all the way

 

[jamesthomas]

Could you do a test using a .50 cal.? Thats what a lot of us here use. Try it with 3 different loads, say 60, 70 and 80 grns of each. I think a chronograph is on my list before the end of summer and before hunting season starts. I would like to know what my 65 grns of KIK is doing, as thats my hunting load. I use a op wad that gives me better accuracy than without.

 

[roundball]

Could you do a test using a .50 cal.? Thats what a lot of us here use. Try it with 3 different loads, say 60, 70 and 80 grns of each.

No, but if you'll scroll down the page at the link below, you'll see the .50cal / Goex 3F I already posted.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/269935/tp/2/

 

That somewhat supports the general rule about reducing your volume by 10% when going from FFG to FFFG powder. You might want to try that in a couple of tests with say 100gr. to 90gr. and also 50, and 45.

Bill

 

[Stumpkiller]

As Bill points out - how about by volume? Most b/p charges are dispensed without a scale on hand.

 

[roundball]

As Bill points out - how about by volume? Most b/p charges are dispensed without a scale on hand.

Not sure we're on the same page...I made no mention of these being scaled/weighed charges.

All my powder charges are measured by and listed as thrown by their respective volume measures...simply listed in the normal style of volume settings on a powder measure:
ie: 60grns, 80grns, 100grns, 120grns, etc.

 

[Sinner]

I'm thinking those charges are probably by volume, or did I miss some statement about weighed charges?

 

[Stumpkiller]

You compared 100 gr. of 2F vs. 100 gr. of 3F. The the same with 120 gr. vs. 120 gr. That's weight - not volume. "Grain" is a weight unit of measure :idunno:

 

[damron]

Do you have issue with the screens getting fouled?I chrono'd a .45 recently and my PACT screens were at 5' for my centerfire stuff and got all gooped up.
These are instrumental and are not corrected for muzzle velocity correct?

good data-------thanks------------

George

 

[Zonie]

Although your technically right about the weight thing everybody I know is talking "volume" whenever they talk about throwing a powder charge.

They use the term "grain" because it is a generally accepted term that describes the powder charge in terms that other muzzleloaders will understand and relate to.

Who knows? IF they are lucky their "90 grain" powder measure might actually dump out 90 grains of black powder.

In any case, consistency is the key word in doing one of these tests.
As long as the powder charge is measured exactly the same with the same powder measure the answers will have some validity.

At least that's the way I sees it. :grin:

 

[Sinner]

You compared 100 gr. of 2F vs. 100 gr. of 3F. The the same with 120 gr. vs. 120 gr. That's weight - not volume. "Grain" is a weight unit of measure :idunno:

Oh really? Do you carry around a small scale with you while shooting black powder? You are the first I've met. How inconvenient? How long does it take you to get a second shot off? I realize it's not stated as to whether the charges are weighed or measured, but personally, I use a powder measure. I find lugging a scale around to be inefficient and too cumbersome. :rotf: :stir:

 

[Darkgael]

I appreciate the tradition and field utility of measuring and loading by volume.
There is a "but", however.....
Measuring by volume only ignores the fact that different powders - Goex, Swiss, KIK, etc. - have different densities and equal volumes do not produce equal weight charges.
The last time that I compared/ weighed equal volumes of Swiss and Goex, the Swiss was more than 10%
denser.

Of course, for tests involving a single powder, as was the case in the tests reported in this thread, volume measures are acceptable. It is only when comparing results to other powders that actual weight is useful to know.
Pete

 

[roundball]

"...everybody I know is talking "volume" whenever they talk about throwing a powder charge.
They use the term "grain" because it is a generally accepted term that describes the powder charge in terms that other muzzleloaders will understand and relate to..."

Correct.

In addition, literature associated with muzzleloading routinely uses the term 'grains' to describe the amount of powder thrown from a particular size volumetric powder setting, not a scale weight.

Incidentally, the 50-120 grain adjustable T/C volumetric powder measures I started with 20 years ago happen to be dead on the mark as they designed it, using Goex 2F as the reference standard, 100=100.

The 100 grain setting throws a charge of Goex 2F that actually weighs 100 grains weight as it should.
(FYI, the same 100grn setting throws a charge of Goex 3F that only weighs 94grns)
And I list the specific brand of powder so there's never anything left to the imagination.

 

Black Powder is supposed to be a measure of volume that, you would weigh a charge to calibrate your measure so that weight, and volume are the equal. There is generally a slight variance between 2F, and 3F, but only a couple of grains. Stumpy is technically correct, in that grains are a measure of weight, but it's been an excepted volumetric also when it comes to Black powder. I'd still like to see if the 10% rule results in similar velocities, or if maybe some other percent would be better.

Bill

 

[roundball]

Do you have issue with the screens getting fouled?

Never noticed any...I set the screens further out than you, at 15 feet (length of the cables)

 

[roundball]

http://www.pact.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=67

 

[Stumpkiller]

You compared 100 gr. of 2F vs. 100 gr. of 3F. The the same with 120 gr. vs. 120 gr. That's weight - not volume. "Grain" is a weight unit of measure :idunno:

Oh really? Do you carry around a small scale with you while shooting black powder? You are the first I've met. How inconvenient? How long does it take you to get a second shot off? I realize it's not stated as to whether the charges are weighed or measured, but personally, I use a powder measure. I find lugging a scale around to be inefficient and too cumbersome. :rotf: :stir:

Well, if you're carrying a shooting table, chair, benchrest, chrono and chrono stand around hunting what's an extra half pound for a scale?

Noooo. That is why I asked "why measure by weight instead of volume". If by volume is it "100 gr" of FFg or "100 gr" of FFFg? The volume to weight is not equal for the two. FFFg weighs slightly more for a given volume because there is less are space.

Seems if you're gonna get all techie and use a chrono you ought to define the parameters. I have a brass measure factory marked "100" that throws 127 gr of FFFg or 122 gr of FFg. I know because I used a scale. I know what my turkey bone measures throw because I measured - in case I lose one I can make another that will shoot to where my sights are regulated. But no, I don't weigh each load. In fact, that volume measure is +/- 3 gr for each use . . . but that's good enough for who it's for.

Forget it - this isn't why I like muzzleloaders.

 

[gizamo]

Well said... :hatsoff: