condensation fouling powder

[Brokennock]

1st, if this belongs under "general muzzle loading" I apologise, please relocate.

Can someone please explain this thing about condensation fouling the powder charge of a gun loaded for a day of hunting and then being brought indoors unfired and kept indoors charged until the next outing/opportunity? I just can't wrap my head around the concept of condensation moisture penetrating steel to get to a sealed powder charge. From the muzzle end there is a patched round ball or other projectile sealing off the powder sufficiently to keep gasses from blowing by, in my case either a prb over a card or a couple thin cards with a lubed felt wad followed by a projectile or paper cup full of shot then two more cards, and I plug the touch hole with a toothpick.
I can see how a warm barrel, and thus the pan on a flintlock, could devlope condensation ON it, but how does this get to the powder?

 

[daniel collums]

this topic would fit better in g.m category. i don't think it would do anything to the main charge but could moisten the powder in the drum under the nipple where there is no seal and that would cause a misfire.

 

[necchi]

I just can't wrap my head around the concept of condensation moisture penetrating steel

It doesn't "penetrate" steel.
Ambient moisture exists,, everywhere,, all the time.
Condensation occurs, when the moisture available (even the tiny amount trapped between the patched ball and the breech) reaches what called the Dew Point, Yup, like dew on the grass, the ground is warm and the air is cold.
That little bit of moisture trapped there is happy, it's dispersed,, it's spread thinly all over.
When the gun is cold, and brought into warm air the temp swing that happens can bring the temp range to the dew point and "condensate" (condenses) that available moisture,, now it's been inside all night and that condensed moisture has to go someplace right? What's better then the nice dry powder to suck it up.
It's doesn't happen all the time and it doesn't always happen so bad that it causes problems,, but those of us that live in northern climes have learned that if it does happen it'll happen at the most inopportune times, (It's A Murphy) and have learned to take simple precautions to avoid any trouble.
If you have no safe place to store outside, you can help slow the chance by insulating the rifle when you bring it in, keep it in the case, even wrap the cased gun in a blanket so that it warms slowly to room temp

 

[Danny Ross]

Necci is correct (does that surprise any one) the faster the temperature change the greater the chance of condensation, this has also been called barrel sweating. If you keep your rifle in a foam insulated case (hard or soft), leave it there till the whole thing approximately reaches room temp or the temp of the outdoors. Because of the slower temperature change occurring to the rifle, the case will have to warm or cool first from the outside in, it will decreased the chance you will have any condensation at all. DANNY

 

[Spikebuck]

If you have no safe place to store outside, you can help slow the chance by insulating the rifle when you bring it in, keep it in the case, even wrap the cased gun in a blanket so that it warms slowly to room temp

I have a safe place outside that I many times use, but if I am going to bring it in, I leave it in the case as you suggest. In fact, my garage is usually around 50 degrees, so I leave it sit in the vehicle in the case a while, then bring it in and leave it in the case.

Have never had an issue doing this even for extreme low temperatures outside. The key is to not have an abrupt change in the temperature around the steel.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I just plug the vent or lower the hammer onto leather over the nipples and bring right on in the house.
Never had an issue even if the steel does get condensation all over it for 10 minute until it rises to room temp.

Don't know what all the fuss is about. :idunno:

 

[Vaino]

How cold does it get where you're at? The winters here in Wisconsin probably are a lot colder and doing what you said you do would surely cause condensation and a good chance for rust.....Fred

 

[Britsmoothy]

I don't doubt your place is colder but condensation amount is not governed purely by temperature alone!
I don't find rusting an issue.
If a gun is still loaded when I come in and the breach sealed a patch with olive oil is run down the bore a few times, I may do this every other day until next outing.
Even coming home empty and no time to clean the whole gun in side and out gets coated in olive oil and it is protected until I can clean it with hot water.

Don't worry about it :thumbsup:

 

[Vaino]

Evidently you're not familiar w/ hunting in 15 degrees below zero and then bringing a gun into a heated room. We in the northern climes understand this and if one hasn't experienced these low temps, the advice given isn't reliable and if heeded, results in a lot of rust and a possible hangfire or reduced load. Nearly sounds like you're "baiting"? Keep the pics coming...really enjoy them.....Fred

 

[coloradoclyde]

I remember coyote hunting in -30 f temps and when we would come in from outside we would immediately uncase our guns and set them by the wood stove...
As we pulled them out of the cases they would frost up and turn completely white as if covered with snow.....
If you waited to long after you came through the door they would freeze to the case, and if you didn't take them out at all, once they warmed up they would be soaked and dripping wet....
If left in the case for a day or two you had a real rusty mess.....
Also if you went back outside before the gun was completely dry any moving parts would freeze rendering the gun useless...


Also... during certain times of the year, day, or depending on temperature and location a gun resting on the floor leaning up against the wall can undergo enough of a temperature variation from one end to the other to experience condensation just sitting there....this happens a lot in the spring and fall.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Evidently you're not familiar w/ hunting in 15 degrees below zero and then bringing a gun into a heated room. We in the northern climes understand this and if one hasn't experienced these low temps, the advice given isn't reliable and if heeded, results in a lot of rust and a possible hangfire or reduced load. Nearly sounds like you're "baiting"? Keep the pics coming...really enjoy them.....Fred

53 parallel sir, and you are?

The coldest I hunted in was -18c. Had no issues.

If you have a need to win a I hunt in the coldest weather competition I am sure you would win.
But don't imply I am baiting!

As an average hunter who loves the woods and nature pretty much like most, I do it how I do it and get by on it not to badly thank you.

B.

 

[Vaino]

Sorry...your temps in Britain must be warmer and the humidity lower. -18 C is 0 degrees F....not very cold. But...perhaps guns behave differently in Britain when subjected to cold temps.....Fred

 

[coloradoclyde]

0 degrees F....not very cold

Sweatshirt weather..... :haha:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Well that is just fantastic for you and shows just how much more of a man you all must be, well done you all.

 

[ddoyle]

-18 C is 0 degrees F....not very cold

You must be made of stern stuff! I have worked in the bush at -60 c and done lots of hunting at -40 C but that was in the dry air of the north where 0 F is pretty doable in a hoody and vest if you are not drivng a snowmoblie. BUT get into coastal areas with damp air and -18 c is misery.

re the condensation, We always wrap rifles in heavy blankets when bringing them in from the cold or blast the truck heater on them on the way home.

 

[Britsmoothy]

The bit I don't understand is how come a wooden vent pick holds boiled water in the bore when I am cleaning or a leather pad under the hammer on the nipple for the same purpose is not capable of keeping condensed moisture out :idunno: :slap:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Because the temperature/pressure change condenses the water vapor that is in the air....
Even though you pack your load in good and tight there is still air in the bolster and in between the powder granules.....
Also water can condense in the barrel above the ball and run down, and eventually work its way past the ball or shot charge if the gun is stored muzzle up.
Also; Remember black powder is hydroscopic...so..it is looking to latch onto a water molecule.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Because the temperature/pressure change condenses the water vapor that is in the air....
Even though you pack your load in good and tight there is still air in the bolster and in between the powder granules.....
Also water can condense in the barrel above the ball and run down, and eventually work its way past the ball or shot charge if the gun is stored muzzle up.
Also; Remember black powder is hydroscopic...so..it is looking to latch onto a water molecule.

Have you actually tested this?

Has anyone loaded a fired gun that has been out in -70c, come inside vents sealed and gone out next day and fired the gun?
The foul is certainly hygroscopic but my tests revealed black powder is quite resistant to absorbing moisture ambiently.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Has anyone loaded a fired gun that has been out in -70c,

Nope!....That's 94 degrees below zero Fahrenheit.
Everything on me would freeze off at that temp.. :grin:

The air can't hang onto moisture at those temps....and indoor moisture levels would be extremely low in such an environment unless you has an artificial means of humidifying the air.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Has anyone loaded a fired gun that has been out in -70c,

Nope!....That's 94 degrees below zero Fahrenheit.
Everything on me would freeze off at that temp.. :grin:

The air can't hang onto moisture at those temps....and indoor moisture levels would be extremely low in such an environment unless you has an artificial means of humidifying the air.

So what temp have you tested this scenario?
Please!