Idaho Ron said:
Some of us shoot game that is bigger than a rabbit. Most white tails I see shot back east are smaller then some dogs. If I were shooting the deer you guys shoot I guess I would use something that packs no whomp. :rotf:
I can also see where you guys that are recoil shy need a load that has much less power and recoil. :idunno:
I will continue to shoot a load that packs a whomp and won't come off the charge. Paper Patch does that. :blah:
I hunt in Montana we have big critters here too. "Whomp" is greatly overrated. Penetration is more important and it only needs to be "adequate". I have shot quite a number of various Montana game with about any projectile one can think up, no bullets from MLs, however. I even shot a Mule Deer in the neck with a handloaded mil-surp "pulled" incendiary from a 30-40 1895 Carbine. It it "lit up" when it hit the bone. Lead bullets in almost any shape and alloy from every almost any Sharps caliber, some smaller stuff and a 450 BPE Irish double rifle, this experience covers about any bullet shot from a modern ML. Round balls from 45 to .662, quite a number actually. Based on my experience as a hunting guide I can assure you that "whomp" is ALWAYS, ALWAYS trumped by shot placement. I have never had a RB fail to penetrate to the vitals IF PLACED RIGHT, and I don't shoot critter in the a$$ with a ML. If the critter turns when the shot is broke the shot can go astray and this can happen due to various problems with the shooter, light, position etc etc. But in most cases the bullet used is not going to be "magic" in solving a problem with bad shot. A 500 GR RN lead fired from a Ruger #1 with smokeless in the WRONG PLACE is far less effective than a 45 round ball launched at 1300-1400 fps that lands in the RIGHT PLACE.
Now if one insists on shooting a bullet from a ML your PP idea is a good one it DOES solve the bullet movement issue. But it does not solve the pressure issue. Nor does it address the rifling twist issue or people using "store bought" bullets that sometimes leave a great deal to be desired. If people must use a bullet in a ML, as you know, it must be a good design and the rifling twist needs to be faster than 48" to give the bullet some stability as it strikes the animal. 30" or less is better. Couple a marginal nose shape with a marginal twist and a perfectly placed shot may end up wounding the animal. I have even experienced this with some modern HV 45-70 factory ammo. One "prefect shot" need a follow up when the deer got back up and ran and the other, also striking perfectly at point of aim on a broadside buck deflected, missed the heart/arteries it was aimed at and blew up the one of the stomachs when is turned 45 degrees. This is ENTIRELY the result of a pointed, plastic tipped bullet. I have never had this occur with a FP cast bullet OR a round ball.
Then we have barrel steels. Most "custom" ML barrels in the US are deficient in this. So I would recommend a factory made or Italian import with Italian proofs. Both internal and external breech design is important. Internal to deal with the much higher pressure and external to deal with cap fragments and escaping gas. This is a good breech design from Track of The Wolf's site.
Few modern factory guns have good breeches, most have the same too high nipple location seen on many low end 19th c guns and even most military percussion arms of the percussion era. But the Military percussion used a very heavy hammer and springs and low pressure loads. The US military load for the Minie was 1000 fps or a little less, for example.
Now if people wants to shoot bullets from MLs then go for it. But educate yourself. Some bullets out there, like the original TC "Maxi-Ball" was a dismal game bullet from all accounts. Some I know hunting Moose in Canada abandoned it since the RB of the same caliber was better and the round ball of similar
weight was far superior. Killing faster and doing so on far less pressure.
What I do disagree with is telling people that they are shooting much smaller deer than you do and somehow this makes there experiences irrelevant. There are a LOT of big deer in the east. Then we have Sir William Drummond Stewart stating that deer shot with his 20 bore Manton in the 1830s would invariably run off while the much larger Elk went down right away. You also have to remember that long before the modern ML bullet craze took off people all over the US and Canada, in modern times, were killing animals, large and small, with PRBs. In fact to get the ML seasons in some cases they had to go to their State's Game department and PROVE the RB loads would work. But most people shooting MLs today don't remember this.
I shoot a traditional FL if I hunt with a ML (which aging eyes have pretty well precluded now). This alone precludes me from shooting a bullet.
If I feel the need to shoot a bullet I use a brass suppository gun. I have shot or seen shot a LOT of animals, deer, black bear, elk, moose, antelope. I have seen all of them killed cleanly with all the different bullets I have used some in really marginal BPCR calibers by modern standards. Sometimes critters don't want to die even when shot with more than adequate loads/cartridges, modern or otherwise with decent shot placement. How about round balls from ML pistols? I know for example that a 50 cal Rb at less than 800 fps from a short barreled FL pistol will shoot though a Mule Deer Buck's chest at an angel from front shoulder muscles to far side diaphragm. This is about the same velocity that a 50 cal RB rifle will produce at 200 yards. So penetration is not an issue. Most RBs at typical ML ranges will give 30" of penetration. BTW the FBI says that about 12" of penetration is ideal for shooting bad guys. If 30" does not kill the critter then you likely shot the critter in the wrong spot. If penetration is REALLY a worry, shoot hardened round balls. All the old African and Asian big game hunters did.
I would also point out that "recoil shy" is silly as well. Some people don't like recoil, some have physical reasons. Shooting a 1903 Springfield from prone puts my neck "out" for example. But recoil, in general, reduces potential accuracy. Look at the rifles, usually in a short 6mm wildcat cartridge, that the long range (1000 yard) bench rest shooter shoot. They start at about 16 pounds. Why? The extra mass = less firearms movement and smaller groups.
My 45-100 weights 15 pounds and will throw a bullet out by FEET at 400 yards when shooting off x sticks if I don't get behind the rifle properly and it recoils a little "funny". 530 gr at 1370 fps has a lot of barrel time and the gun moves before the bullet clears the muzzle.
You wanna shoot bullets, go for it, but quit making fun of people and the animals they shoot (they have Elk seasons in some states in the East now you know) just because you think you have all the answers. Bullets are not magic, animals are not bullet proof. The shooter is the most critical part of the equation.
When I was guiding I HATED having hunters showing up with some magnum. Much rather it be someone with a well used 270 or 30-06 they actually knew how to use. Most hunters were intimidated by the magnum be it a 300 or a 340 or whatever. Some could barely hit the hill the animal was standing on. So recoil IS a factor.
Dan
Never made a damned bit of sense to me. :youcrazy: But, for some strange reason, they never asked for my opinion. :idunno: Go figure.
