Conical Terminal Performance Research

[TheMadYankee]

Afternoon folks.

I was looking to pick some brains regarding terminal performance if various conical bullets. I have yet to do any real group testing with my 50 Cal WMC, other than the resident old fart and I messing around on our range with an 80 grain charge of 2f Schutzen and some 350 grain TC Maxi hunters (which actually gave decent results). I have measured the rifling twist using the old patch/ramrod technique, and found it to be the old 1:20 twist TC initially made these rifles in. Based on that, I'd predict that this rifle is built more specifically for conical bullets than round balls.

Anyhow, my hunting scenario is a bit specific. I tend to be hunting both Whitetails and Black Bear at close range in brushy cover. As our general Bear and muzzy deer seasons completely overlap, I'm trying to develop a load that would be workable for both. As stated, we tested the 350 MH, but I also have 385 Hornady GPs to try. Does anybody have experience driving these through game at close range, or has used other conical in a similar scenario? Obviously shot placement is the main thing, but I'm curious to ask those with experience.

Edit: Fixed a number of typos.

 

[chorizo]

50 cal Hornady GP HP shot into a wet silt/sand bank at 25 yards at 1530 fps.

Haven't shot live game with it and this was just a whim to see what the expansion would be.


You might also take a look at No Excuses 50 cal bullets They offer a sizing pack to get the exact fit you want and a variety of nice conicals that have shown respectable accuracy in a variety of guns and twists.
https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/shop/

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

Afternoon folks.

I was looking to pick some brains regarding terminal performance if various conical bullets. I have yet to do any real group testing with my 50 Cal WMC, other than the resident old fart and I messing around on our range with an 80 grain charge of 2f Schutzen and some 350 grain TC Maxi hunters (which actually gave decent results). I have measured the rifling twist using the old patch/ramrod technique, and found it to be the old 1:20 twist TC initially made these rifles in. Based in that, I'd predict that this rifle is built more specifically for conical than round balls.

Anyhow, my hunting scenario is a bit specific. I tend to be hunting both Whitetails and Black Bear at close range in brushy cover. As the our general Bear and muzzy dear seasons completely overlap, I'm trying to develop a load that would be workable for both. As stated we tested the 350 MH, but I also have 385 Hornady GPs to try. Does anybody have experience driving these through game at close range, or has used other conical in a similar scenario? Obviously shot placement is the main thing, but I'm curious to ask those with experience.

I'm tentatively going to make smoke on Sunday. I'm shooting at an actetalyne tank at 300 yds with a restored .50 Pedersoli Frontier Flintlock. I'm relatively new to flint an' a complete n00b at shootin' frontstuffers over longer range.

Previous experimentation with patched ball (.49"/176gr) over a 90gr charge of 2F Hodgdon's 777 confirms that the trajectory is very similar to that of a howitzer. I suspect that the ball does not have enough momentum to maintain a civilized trajectory. I intend to see if this can be improved by saboting a .40 200gr over the same charge. I have invested in a cheap chrony and Amazon's threatening to deliver on time. We'll see. I'll post whatever data I can glean before it inevitably succumbs to BP residue.

Any y'all been doin' this a while, suggestions welcome. Right now, I want to flatten that trajectory. I'm not expectin' .240 Swift, but I'm just not willing to accept patrol mortar. I think I need a projectile with a bit more ...errr... ice to it.

 

[longcruise]

You will have a hard time finding a bullet that won't work in your scenario. Since it's looking like up close and personal I'd go with something that you can get a mold for and economize on doing a lot of shooting.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

You will have a hard time finding a bullet that won't work in your scenario. Since it's looking like up close and personal I'd go with something that you can get a mold for and economize on doing a lot of shooting.

I don't think I understand. 300 yds is only up close an' personal with artillery.

 

[BS]

https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/product/50-caliber-sampler-pack/
These are very nice bullets and the sample is in .500 or .503 diameter.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/product/50-caliber-sampler-pack/
These are very nice bullets and the sample is in .500 or .503 diameter.

Thank you. It's a .50 until I get the custom .45 barrel. I'm not trying to find a perfect bullet. Not just yet. I'm trying to find out the principles impacting the trajectory to establish a point to start working from. It's not about reaching the destination. The pleasure's in the journey itself.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I suspect that the ball does not have enough momentum to maintain a civilized trajectory. I intend to see if this can be improved by saboting a .40 200gr over the same charge.

Any y'all been doin' this a while, suggestions welcome. Right now, I want to flatten that trajectory. I'm not expectin' .240 Swift, but I'm just not willing to accept patrol mortar. I think I need a projectile with a bit more ...errr... ice to it.

You are correct, the round sphere has a craptastic ballistic coefficient, and sheds velocity fast.
Your other option for discussion is some sort of elongated bullet, perhaps with a paper patch, "40 Rods" [220 yards] was once a standard shooting distance for muzzleloading rifles, and you will find lots of information on how that distance was achieved in The Muzzle Loading Cap-Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts.

Other than those two options you may have to try our sister sight, Modern Muzzleloaders . Sabots and modern bullets, however, are verboten topics on this forum.

LD

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

You are correct, the round sphere has a craptastic ballistic coefficient, and sheds velocity fast.
Your other option for discussion is some sort of elongated bullet, perhaps with a paper patch, "40 Rods" [220 yards] was once a standard shooting distance for muzzleloading rifles, and you will find lots of information on how that distance was achieved in The Muzzle Loading Cap-Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts.

Other than those two options you may have to try our sister sight, Modern Muzzleloaders . Sabots and modern bullets, however, are verboten topics on this forum.

LD

That's really interesting. I am familiar with paper-patching, but never done it. Something I plan to remedy one of these days, possibly using solid copper projectiles. That said, I'm outta here. I don't think I'll get far seeking information where said information is haram.

 

[longcruise]

I don't think I understand. 300 yds is only up close an' personal with artillery.

I was responding to the OP who stated:

"Anyhow, my hunting scenario is a bit specific. I tend to be hunting both Whitetails and Black Bear at close range in brushy cover."

 

[TheMadYankee]

I think DementedMindOfJac tried to hijack my thread . In any case, good info all around! I'm definitely interested in trying those 420 grain No Excuses slugs. One factor I've found in hunting at close range is that higher strike velocity puts alot of strain on lighter bullets. Overall, I'm definitely an adherent of "carve a big hole and go all the way through" especially when it comes to muzzleloaders.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

I was responding to the OP who stated:

"Anyhow, my hunting scenario is a bit specific. I tend to be hunting both Whitetails and Black Bear at close range in brushy cover."

Now it makes sense. I was thinkin' if'n this feller figgers 300yds is up close an' personal, I sure am glad I ain't never shot again' him in a match.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

I think DementedMindOfJac tried to hijack my thread . In any case, good info all around! I'm definitely interested in trying those 420 grain No Excuses slugs. One factor I've found in hunting at close range is that higher strike velocity puts alot of strain on lighter bullets. Overall, I'm definitely an adherent of "carve a big hole and go all the way through" especially when it comes to muzzleloaders.

I'd agree. Velocities obtainable with BP really leaves bullet weight as the only variable.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

I think DementedMindOfJac tried to hijack my thread . In any case, good info all around! I'm definitely interested in trying those 420 grain No Excuses slugs. One factor I've found in hunting at close range is that higher strike velocity puts alot of strain on lighter bullets. Overall, I'm definitely an adherent of "carve a big hole and go all the way through" especially when it comes to muzzleloaders.

Felony was not my intent. I am but a layman in a quest for wisdom.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

I'm tentatively going to make smoke on Sunday. I'm shooting at an actetalyne tank at 300 yds with a restored .50 Pedersoli Frontier Flintlock. I'm relatively new to flint an' a complete n00b at shootin' frontstuffers over longer range.

Previous experimentation with patched ball (.49"/176gr) over a 90gr charge of 2F Hodgdon's 777 confirms that the trajectory is very similar to that of a howitzer. I suspect that the ball does not have enough momentum to maintain a civilized trajectory. I intend to see if this can be improved by saboting a .40 200gr over the same charge. I have invested in a cheap chrony and Amazon's threatening to deliver on time. We'll see. I'll post whatever data I can glean before it inevitably succumbs to BP residue.

Any y'all been doin' this a while, suggestions welcome. Right now, I want to flatten that trajectory. I'm not expectin' .240 Swift, but I'm just not willing to accept patrol mortar. I think I need a projectile with a bit more ...errr... ice to it.

Update: There will be no velocity data available on Sunday. Amazon just delivered my new chrony. It's one them pre-broken models it seems.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I don't get this sorry.
What in the name off .......is going to happen, the dang slug bounce back at ya?
They will just plough on through and get the job done.
One time dirt nap right there the next go on a run and vice versa.

 

[TheMadYankee]

I don't get this sorry.
What in the name off .......is going to happen, the dang slug bounce back at ya?
They will just plough on through and get the job done.
One time dirt nap right there the next go on a run and vice versa.

You'd be amazed at what I've seen fail to properly penetrate and or leave nigh un trackable blood trails due to shoddy construction. Plus having realistic ideas as to how various bullets perform is useful. Without mentioning subjects that are verboten on this board, I've seen certain "conicals" which 100 percent did not "plow on through," rather they entered one one side and exploded. Not my preferred method of hunting any big game and certainly not a scenario I'd like to try on a bear.

 

[Britsmoothy]

You'd be amazed at what I've seen fail to properly penetrate and or leave nigh un trackable blood trails due to shoddy construction. Plus having realistic ideas as to how various bullets perform is useful. Without mentioning subjects that are verboten on this board, I've seen certain "conicals" which 100 percent did not "plow on through," rather they entered one one side and exploded. Not my preferred method of hunting any big game and certainly not a scenario I'd like to try on a bear.

I'm not referring to modern bullets that I am fully experienced in.
Soft heavy solid slugs from moderate velocity muzzloaders plough deep.

 

[TheMadYankee]

I'm not referring to modern bullets that I am fully experienced in.
Soft heavy solid slugs from moderate velocity muzzloaders plough deep.

I would imagine they do. Even so, thought it might be pertinent to ask people who had used them before what sorts of behaviors I should expect.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I would imagine they do. Even so, thought it might be pertinent to ask people who had used them before what sorts of behaviors I should expect.

Ok fine but if they were really really bad it would be common knowledge by now.
I'd be more concerned about them moving off the charge over an extended day/s hunt.