Conicals for Uberti 1860 Army

[frogwalking]

Thanks to someone on this site, I contacted [email protected] and got a hundred dandy short semiwadcutters. They won't fit through the frame cutout in my revolver, and I don't have the heart to grind out this really nice gun. I bought a cylinder loader from Cabellas for $25 so I can load them without any modification. How many grains of powder do you think I can cram in here. The bullets are about .75 inch long.

 

[rodwha]

I'm quite surprised that they don't fit through the Uberti's slot. I'd have to guess it's getting caught near the tip as the cutout is somewhat oval.

I would think you could get 35 grns of 3F BP under it fairly easy. Maybe you ought to start with 30 grns and move up 5 to see how much space that took to see if you can add another 5 grns or not.

I had to pull a conical when I tried 3F Olde Eynsford with the same volume measure I typically used with Triple 7. Not cool!

 

[Zonie]

No way can 35 grains of powder be loaded into a 1860 Colt cylinder with a 3/4 inch long slug rammed over the top of it.

35 grains is even a lot for that 1860 Colt cylinder if a simple lead roundball is being rammed.

The chambers on my Uberti 1860 measure 1.325 deep.

Subtracting .75 from that leaves a depth of .575.
With a chamber diameter of .450 that would hold about 22 grains of powder.

 

[rodwha]

I thought that the Colt 1860, Remington 1858, and ROA all held about the same volume?

I have read Gatofeo's findings on original cartridges from the CW:

COLT ARMY .44
Hazard Powder Co. - 211 gr. conical / 36 grs. powder
Bartholow's - 260 gr. conical / 19 grs. powder
Johnston & Dow - 242 gr. conical / 35 grs. powder
Unknown - 257 gr. conical / 17 grs. powder
Unknown - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder
Hotchkiss - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder

Are these not for the 1860 Army?

 

[rodwha]

He also notes this:

Colt recommended the following, more than 125 years ago:
1 dram = 27.3 grains (grs.)

.44 Dragoon: 1-1/2 drams of black powder (41 grs.) and a round bullet of 48 to the pound (about 146 grs, which calculates at about .46 caliber) or a conical bullet of 32 to the pound (about 219 grains).
.44 M1860 Army - Powder charge about 1/3 less than the Dragoon, or 27 grains. A conical bullet of 212 grains (33 to the pound) or the same round ball used in the Dragoon above (about .46-caliber or 146 grs. weight).

 

[rodwha]

Are you loading the Lee 200 grn conical or his 195 grn SWC?

This is the measurement of the 195 grn SWCs I bought from him:

[/img]

 

[crockett]

Same thing, I know the loading port on the Colt1851 36 caliber Navy is small but I thought the 1860 Colt Army was large enough for most conicals. On the 1851 Colt Navy, you really need to find the tapered original type conical.
One reason the combustible cartridges might have had moderate (17 gr) powder charges was to keep the OAL small enough to load.

 

Thanks to someone on this site, I contacted [email protected] and got a hundred dandy short semiwadcutters. They won't fit through the frame cutout in my revolver, and I don't have the heart to grind out this really nice gun. I bought a cylinder loader from Cabellas for $25 so I can load them without any modification. How many grains of powder do you think I can cram in here. The bullets are about .75 inch long.

The SWC I cast are experimental as they are still new. I hope they are a good answer to the venerable lee 45-200
How much powder? Depends on the revolver.
The new model army 25 to 30 grains FFG
Yes some revolvers will not accept conicals under the loading area.
These bullets are:
.515 tall the lee 45-200 are about .600 if I remember right.
These have a rebated base of .446 while Lee is .450
Mine has a large lube groove and two sealing rings of .455 diameter.
Hope this info helps.

 

[Maven]

In response to the original poster:

Lee Precision offers 2 molds for the .45cal. Auto Rim and .45 Colt, which may work for you: http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/hand-gun-bullet-molds/bullet-mold-double-cavity Look at #s .090 and .140 (bold print). I have the former, which casts .453" in pure Pb and it fits my Rem. 1858 replica when seated normally or reversed.

 

[crockett]

Although I like Colt revolvers if maximum charges and a heavy conical are used- it would seem pressure would increase and a shooter might be better off with the Remington and its top strap. How well do the Colt Army Revolvers hold up to heavy conicals and maximum powder charges?

 

[BGRooster1]

I have used those 195 gr. SWC conicals in my Euroarms Rogers & Spencer . The loading cut-out is plenty tall for these but is not wide enough on the outer edge of the cut-out. I am loading off the revolver at this time until I take a dremel to open it up.
I used 30 grs, of 3F Olde Eynsford for my first time out with these. I will be trying to fit 35 grs. the next time out.I think it will just seat the tip at the edge of the chamber.

 

[nkbj]

While I love to experiment with bullets in percussion revolvers I've never worked with percussion revolver cartridges. Were the conical pointy bullets in essence paper patched projectiles? Pondering on it well, it seems that they would have to have been paper patched. All the while that I've been working with paper patching various designs of rifle bullets it just never occurred to me that revolver bullets were!

 

[Wes/Tex]

These cartridges are not the same as paper-patched rifle bullets used for target and hunting rifles during the later cartridge era. Basically, the conical bullets from the Colt's type mold had tapered paper cones filled with powder and glued to the lower sides. These can be made with cigarette rolling paper, or similar paper, and were the typical issue for mounted troops of that time. As mentioned, they were less effective than round balls loaded over full cylinders but were quicker to reload...about their only advantage.

 

[nkbj]

Of course they weren't the same as paper patched bullets used in many military and target rifles of of the Civil War era, but they had paper glued to the contact area of the bullets. Did the paper get sheared away in loading? Did the paper assist in shot to shot clearing of the bore? What effect was there on accuracy of the arms? That's fascinating to me.

 

[Wes/Tex]

I've never bothered with trying to shoot them although I've made a few for friends who'd like to try something original. Depending on the actual mold, the paper is sheared off with the lead bullet edge. Not sure about the originals, but mine were dipped in a saturated mix of potassium nitrate to make it more comparable to flash paper to add to the combustable nature of the cartridge. Never felt comfortable using them seriously since I've seen a couple need to have the cap removed and a wire pushed through to clear paper that blocked the flash channel. have no idea how much of a problem this was back in the day but our attempts to duplicate them caused just enough misfires to generally honk me off! :wink: :haha:

 

[crockett]

Goodcheer: I think what you may be thinking about are combustible cartridges. As soon as Colt invented his revolver he was also working on this type of ammunition. The idea was to have a self contained unit of powder and ball that could be quickly loaded in a percussion revolver.
The big concern was residue and fouling left in the chamber, this material- if not fully burnt up- could hold an ember. If a soldier loaded another round on top of this ember the new round would explode and probably kill the soldier.
Incredible as it may seem, the original form of this ammunition did not use paper, very thin German tin was used for the case. A powder charge was placed in this case and then a conical bullet glued in place. The blast of the percussion cap was powerful enough to rupture the tin case and explode the inside powder.
A lot of shooters today think you are suppose to tear open the case to expose the powder before loading. This is wrong and it negates the purpose of the tin. The tin was fireproof. If there was a live ember left in the chamber the tin of the new case would protect the powder charge.
The tin was also waterproof. The military had really tough tests- submerge the ammunition for four hours and then test it. If a certain percentage of the ammunition would not fire, then the military would not buy it. There was some Johnson & Dow ammunition that often failed this test.
In any event Colt was the main supplier but was having trouble getting the German tin. It was the only tin that really worked well. Colt then came up with the idea of a paper/linen case but these cases would be kept in a shellaced container that was waterproof. The miliary said that would be okay and the paper/linen type cases came into existence.
D.C. Sage of Middleton Connecticut was another major supplier. He used a fish gut case that would "crisp" when fired.
Generally, the military used ONLY these type cartridges in revolvers. I have tried to find evidence of cavalry units issues flasks for pistols, as well as loose balls- I'm not saying it was not done but if it was done- it was very rare.
Terry White of Gettyburg, PA is the expert on this topic. He writes for collectors of this ammunition but we shooters can derive benefit from reading his books. There is a lot of information available on this topic.
Check this: https://www.gunshowbooks.com/cgi-bin/webc.exe/st_prod.html?p_prodid=GS37843&sid=ED3w00Yh

 

[sail32]

Here is some information on bullets.
Round and Conical balls videos.

Attached are 3 videos on shooting round and conical bullets and the results by duelist1954;

Part 1 = Round ball; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGzAuC3O3HM

Part 2 = 220 grain Lee conical; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0xA71_PwHQ

Part 3 = 240 grain Kaido conical; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmYRePzoOQ

 

[D Sanders]

Are you sure about the slug being 3/4 of an inch length? That seems like it would be way too long for a pistol bullet. The loading port in my Pietta will not accept anything longer than .450 to .500 in length. The .750 long bullet wouldn't leave much space for powder and might kick like a mule.

Just my 2 cents worth!
HH 60

 

[rodwha]

Here's Mr. Beliveau's 3 rd video on shooting projectiles from his Uberti 1860 Army. In it he is able to barely seat a 240 grn FN conical that I measured out to .612" over 40 grns of 3F Goex BP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmYRePzoOQ

[/img]

I had attempted loading 40 grns of 3F Triple 7 under a 240 grn Kaido conical and had to cut the nose off. I load it with 35 grns with just a little extra room in my ROA.

With a .457" RB I can load 45 grns of 3F T7, but I cannot use quite that much powder when using 3F Olde Eynsford.

 

[Darto]

Dixie sells a reproduction of the Union Army ordinance manual which was published during the civil war. Inside you can see the army issue paper pistol cartridges as well as other paper cartridges. The manual allowed supply sergeants to make or buy other cartridges that would be identical to the regular army, so the specs are given. Can see what the conical looked like (not like the modern conicals designed for cap and ball).