Correcting Uberti Short Arbors?

[Dickydalton]

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[Bad Karma]

I’ve been shooting the replicas since 1962 and I’ve fired many thousands of shots full power through my favorite replicas. Only corrected an arbor for the first time maybe 5-6 years ago. I haven’t experienced any of the problems some folks have but I’ve always been lucky, with pretty much everything…

A few months ago, after reading William Edward’s book on the Colts Revolvers for the umpteenth time I came across this letter from Sam Colt to the patent office. I’ve read it many times before but this time a paragraph jumped out at me. In it he plainly states that the arbor, (cylinder pin in his language) is fitted to the socket in the barrel lug and the purpose is to control the cylinder gap in both directions.

I’m older than dirt, but boys, I have been shown the light, and have renounced my former wickedness. I still know that the guns will function just fine without correction for many years and many thousands of full power shots but I’m done arguing the point. Sam Colt said it, I believe he knew what he was up to, and I will go forth and sin no more… hallelujah brothers.


“The barrel h has a projection, which is made with a socket to fit onto the end of the spindle, and is there secured by a key,) the end of the spindle being made to bear against the bottom of the socket, so as to determine the distance to which the barrel shall be forced or carried toward the cylinder by the securing-key, and thus prevent the binding of the barrel against the end of the rotating breech, while the key insures a close joint to prevent the escape of lateral fire.”

 

[hawkeye2]

Bad Karma your post ought to bring to an end this and all future discussions of arbor length though I doubt it will. It should be made a sticky. Somehow I expect arbor length will go on and on like discussions of stuck balls/brushes and lube.

 

[bpalbee]

Bad Karma your post ought to bring to an end this and all future discussions of arbor length though I doubt it will. It should be made a sticky. Somehow I expect arbor length will go on and on like discussions of stuck balls/brushes and lube.

Here here

 

[45D]

I’ve been shooting the replicas since 1962 and I’ve fired many thousands of shots full power through my favorite replicas. Only corrected an arbor for the first time maybe 5-6 years ago. I haven’t experienced any of the problems some folks have but I’ve always been lucky, with pretty much everything…

A few months ago, after reading William Edward’s book on the Colts Revolvers for the umpteenth time I came across this letter from Sam Colt to the patent office. I’ve read it many times before but this time a paragraph jumped out at me. In it he plainly states that the arbor, (cylinder pin in his language) is fitted to the socket in the barrel lug and the purpose is to control the cylinder gap in both directions.

I’m older than dirt, but boys, I have been shown the light, and have renounced my former wickedness. I still know that the guns will function just fine without correction for many years and many thousands of full power shots but I’m done arguing the point. Sam Colt said it, I believe he knew what he was up to, and I will go forth and sin no more… hallelujah brothers.


“The barrel h has a projection, which is made with a socket to fit onto the end of the spindle, and is there secured by a key,) the end of the spindle being made to bear against the bottom of the socket, so as to determine the distance to which the barrel shall be forced or carried toward the cylinder by the securing-key, and thus prevent the binding of the barrel against the end of the rotating breech, while the key insures a close joint to prevent the escape of lateral fire.”

View attachment 366622View attachment 366623View attachment 366624

That sir is AWESOME!!
Thanks so much for the post and I'm extremely glad you "saw the light" !! I don't know if Pettifogger has ever seen that but I don't think he ever mentioned it if he did.
It definitely helps to confirm my findings in originals I've worked on, that I currently have in the shop, very early reproductions (probably like yours) and Pettifogger's articles.

Mike (Bad Karma's friend!)

 

[Bad Karma]

Bad Karma your post ought to bring to an end this and all future discussions of arbor length though I doubt it will. It should be made a sticky. Somehow I expect arbor length will go on and on like discussions of stuck balls/brushes and lube.

Don’t make it a sticky! I’m embarrassed that I’ve read so much while comprehending so little for so long! Sheesh!

 

[45D]

As an addendum, the wear of the wedge slots and or wedge itself produces "linear" clearancing ( fore and aft) and will allow accuracy to be somewhat maintained. You can't "wiggle" a barrel off of alignment very much unless there is gross clearance. The "tight" wedge is mostly about maintaining the platform which also obviously would encompass accuracy.

Mike

 

[Bad Karma]

Bad Karma your post ought to bring to an end this and all future discussions of arbor length though I doubt it will. It should be made a sticky. Somehow I expect arbor length will go on and on like discussions of stuck balls/brushes and lube.

Obviously. As long as you fellers insist on using the wrong lube…

 

[M. De Land]

I’ve been shooting the replicas since 1962 and I’ve fired many thousands of shots full power through my favorite replicas. Only corrected an arbor for the first time maybe 5-6 years ago. I haven’t experienced any of the problems some folks have but I’ve always been lucky, with pretty much everything…

A few months ago, after reading William Edward’s book on the Colts Revolvers for the umpteenth time I came across this letter from Sam Colt to the patent office. I’ve read it many times before but this time a paragraph jumped out at me. In it he plainly states that the arbor, (cylinder pin in his language) is fitted to the socket in the barrel lug and the purpose is to control the cylinder gap in both directions.

I’m older than dirt, but boys, I have been shown the light, and have renounced my former wickedness. I still know that the guns will function just fine without correction for many years and many thousands of full power shots but I’m done arguing the point. Sam Colt said it, I believe he knew what he was up to, and I will go forth and sin no more… hallelujah brothers.


“The barrel h has a projection, which is made with a socket to fit onto the end of the spindle, and is there secured by a key,) the end of the spindle being made to bear against the bottom of the socket, so as to determine the distance to which the barrel shall be forced or carried toward the cylinder by the securing-key, and thus prevent the binding of the barrel against the end of the rotating breech, while the key insures a close joint to prevent the escape of lateral fire.”

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Thank you, finally a definitive answer that original Colt design actually called for the arbor to be end fit !
Ok Uberti, you have your marching orders ! Hurrah for Pietta !

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

I had my doubts about that being Colt's design or intention, but you found very definite proof. Thanks!

 

[45D]

Bad Karma, I think this find is every bit as important as Pettifogger's articles and rather significant in that it caroberates his info.
Thanks again for sharing !!

Mike

(Wonder how Mike Beliveau will take this )

 

[M. De Land]

Bad Karma, I think this find is every bit as important as Pettifogger's articles and rather significant in that it caroberates his info.
Thanks again for sharing !!

Mike

(Wonder how Mike Beliveau will take this )

Well It doesn't change what he has found to be experiential-Ly true about accuracy influence just that the original design parameters did indeed include end fitting of the arbor. This has been a question I had from the get go as well that all originals were indeed set up with end fitting.
Apparently end fitting did not solve the longevity issues with the Walker wedge as the originals seemed to go through them rather often as well .





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[D Yager]

I can tell you from experience of working on these pistols that the arbor not being seated can turn a Walker or a Dragoon into a paperweight in short order. I have also corrected a few belt pistols as well that were shot with heavy loads and stretched the frame, it's a lot more common on the big horse pistols. Major Kudos to Bad Karma for finally bringing this into the light!! The stretched frame issue can be fixed but it does get a little labor intensive. I have yet to see a Walker wedge fail after the arbor is corrected. I do have one in a drawer in the shop that tried to fold itself in half, has a nice half moon shape in profile. The stretched frame issue shows up as an increased barrel/cylinder gap and a loose wedge that won't tighten no matter how much it gets pounded on. I just repaired a 2nd model Dragoon that all the classic signs of being shot with full house loads. The arbor was 3/8ths of an inch short, the wedge would fall out and it had a huge barrel to cylinder gap. It's a very accurate pistol and solid as a rock now that it's properly set up and the problems fixed.

 

[Dickydalton]

I can tell you from experience of working on these pistols that the arbor not being seated can turn a Walker or a Dragoon into a paperweight in short order. I have also corrected a few belt pistols as well that were shot with heavy loads and stretched the frame, it's a lot more common on the big horse pistols. Major Kudos to Bad Karma for finally bringing this into the light!! The stretched frame issue can be fixed but it does get a little labor intensive. I have yet to see a Walker wedge fail after the arbor is corrected. I do have one in a drawer in the shop that tried to fold itself in half, has a nice half moon shape in profile. The stretched frame issue shows up as an increased barrel/cylinder gap and a loose wedge that won't tighten no matter how much it gets pounded on. I just repaired a 2nd model Dragoon that all the classic signs of being shot with full house loads. The arbor was 3/8ths of an inch short, the wedge would fall out and it had a huge barrel to cylinder gap. It's a very accurate pistol and solid as a rock now that it's properly set up and the problems fixed.

Dave, Mike has been saying that all along but MDL and pals vehemently deny it and then forget they did.

 

[Smokerr]

Yea, thanks Bad Karma, now we have to put all those opinions into the circular file, and its so many, I am tired already, sigh.

 

[Smokerr]

Apparently end fitting did not solve the longevity issues with the Walker wedge.

And he is off to the races on another tangent. Don't forget the issue of barrel wear out.

Sadly I have yet to solve the issue on having to change oil and replace the filter from time to time in my vehicles! Oh the Humanity.

And darned if engines don't ear out anyway no matter how often you do it. It just ain't right Clyde.

Do not even get me going on Caps and Powder. You pull the trigger and they are just, gone.

 

[M. De Land]

I can tell you from experience of working on these pistols that the arbor not being seated can turn a Walker or a Dragoon into a paperweight in short order. I have also corrected a few belt pistols as well that were shot with heavy loads and stretched the frame, it's a lot more common on the big horse pistols. Major Kudos to Bad Karma for finally bringing this into the light!! The stretched frame issue can be fixed but it does get a little labor intensive. I have yet to see a Walker wedge fail after the arbor is corrected. I do have one in a drawer in the shop that tried to fold itself in half, has a nice half moon shape in profile. The stretched frame issue shows up as an increased barrel/cylinder gap and a loose wedge that won't tighten no matter how much it gets pounded on. I just repaired a 2nd model Dragoon that all the classic signs of being shot with full house loads. The arbor was 3/8ths of an inch short, the wedge would fall out and it had a huge barrel to cylinder gap. It's a very accurate pistol and solid as a rock now that it's properly set up and the problems fixed.

That's all well and good but you ain't the only one with gun training , revolver work experience and opinion on this forum.

 

[D Yager]

Never said I was. And opinions are many and cheap.

 

[Smokerr]

That's all well and good but you ain't the only one with gun training , revolver work experience and opinion on this forum.

Well you got one out of 3 covered (hint its the last one).

You sure are not getting anywhere near any of my guns. 45D in less than a heartbeat.

 

[45D]

Apparently end fitting did not solve the longevity issues with the Walker wedge as the originals seemed to go through them rather often as well .

Well, big ol brand new Walkers replacing Patersons had to be a hoot. Just as today there were probably folks thinking the wedge being in "thumb tight" was good enough. So, you learn the hard way . . . doesn't take long to mess up a wedge. Drive it in says the designers . . . (What do designers/ engineers know and why would you serial number a sacrificial part? ).
Don't really know how "good" their wedge was ( frames were soft as buttah) but glad what we have today is a nicely made hardened steel wedge. With good steel frames and an excellent cylinder, makes ya want to see what we REALLY have !!

Mike