Couple of Questions to ask

[PotomacRanger]

First off I would like to thank everyone who has shed a bit of their knowledge and their well worded opinions on my posts as it has helped a lot. My first question is about getting a starter rifle. I found another gun shop about 30 minutes away that is very cheap compared to the usual local shops. There are four rifles all Thompson Center two are Renegade Flintlocks .50 and .54 caliber and two are Hawken Flintlocks .50 and .54 caliber. The Renegade .50 is $200 and the Renegade .54 is $275. The Hawken .50 is $300 and the .54 Hakwen is $350. All sale come with a box of Hornady round balls .490 or .530 and a 100ct of pre lubed patches .010". This gun shop also had some Goex 2F and 3F powder limit of 2lbs of powder per purchase and he had 2lbs of each to I bought it up. I figured this seems like a good deal and would help me learn around a Flintlock before I upgraded to a nice proper Longrifle. Really I would like to have a cheap starter to see if I will stick with the Flintlock and one I can learn on before I spend big money on a proper rifle. So out of these four rifles which is best ? All are in pretty decent condition no rust at all or damage. All were built in the early 80's with the Hawken .50 being built in 1990 as the newest.
My next question is about a Kibler Longrifle. I got a couple PM's from Forum members all agreeing that the Kibler is the way to go for a nice proper flintlock. I want a Kibler Colonial with a Cherry stock havent decided on caliber yet. Are they easy to put together ? I havent done any woodworking since woodshop in highschool and that really wasnt anything to write home about. Do I need to buy a lot of tools too ? I see the price tag and I really dont want to mess the rifle up but I want to put it together myself. Anyone got any input for that question ? Thanks to all who reply and thanks to all who have replied on previous posts.

EDIT: Got a text message that the shop just got cleared to sell a .45 caliber Thompson Center Flintlock Hawken Rifle that will come with a box of .440 balls and 100 .010" pre lubed patches. Sell price is $300.

 

[64Springer]

Save yourself a $1,000.00 and buy powder, ball and patches with it.

It's smart to see if you like the sport first.

Good luck with your search.

 

[deermanok]

Where's this shop?

 

[64Springer]

Where's this shop?

Sounds like the enchanted magical land of inexpensive muzzleloaders.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

First off I would like to thank everyone who has shed a bit of their knowledge and their well worded opinions on my posts as it has helped a lot. My first question is about getting a starter rifle. I found another gun shop about 30 minutes away that is very cheap compared to the usual local shops. There are four rifles all Thompson Center two are Renegade Flintlocks .50 and .54 caliber and two are Hawken Flintlocks .50 and .54 caliber. The Renegade .50 is $200 and the Renegade .54 is $275. The Hawken .50 is $300 and the .54 Hakwen is $350. All sale come with a box of Hornady round balls .490 or .530 and a 100ct of pre lubed patches .010". This gun shop also had some Goex 2F and 3F powder limit of 2lbs of powder per purchase and he had 2lbs of each to I bought it up. I figured this seems like a good deal and would help me learn around a Flintlock before I upgraded to a nice proper Longrifle. Really I would like to have a cheap starter to see if I will stick with the Flintlock and one I can learn on before I spend big money on a proper rifle. So out of these four rifles which is best ? All are in pretty decent condition no rust at all or damage. All were built in the early 80's with the Hawken .50 being built in 1990 as the newest.
My next question is about a Kibler Longrifle. I got a couple PM's from Forum members all agreeing that the Kibler is the way to go for a nice proper flintlock. I want a Kibler Colonial with a Cherry stock havent decided on caliber yet. Are they easy to put together ? I havent done any woodworking since woodshop in highschool and that really wasnt anything to write home about. Do I need to buy a lot of tools too ? I see the price tag and I really dont want to mess the rifle up but I want to put it together myself. Anyone got any input for that question ? Thanks to all who reply and thanks to all who have replied on previous posts.

Beings as how you will balls and patches provided caliber doesnt really matter. .50 and .54 kill the same on deer but .54 leaves less room for error (marginally less room). Both are stout hitters at 50-75 yards and .54 more so out to 100 in my personal experience with my Pedersoli Mortimer. You'll definitely need to practice not flinching when you fire (I did my first time using a Flintlock and I am sure 75% of forum members did too their first time). Then you'll need to work up a load, i.e. a measurement of powder the works well. The T/C (Thompson Center) rifles you listed all have adjustable rear sights unless they the T/C "Primitive Sight" which is a buckhorn. Personally I would go with the .54 caliber Renegade. I am not a fan of Brass on rifles but the Hawken has a 29" barrel making it two inches longer than the Renegades 27" barrel. I personally like .54 caliber but to each their own. .50 does have more on shelf product as it seems like 80% of muzzleloaders are .50 caliber. But hey I have killed deer with .45, .50, .54, .577, .62, .66, .69 and .75 caliber muzzleloaders and in my opinion the only difference is the hole of the wound. I have had deer drop to my .45 and run long with the .75 all being vital shots. .54 Renegade is what I would choose but your choice is yours. If you are however going to sell the rifle you buy when you are done I would get the .54 Hawken.

Edit: The .45 Hawken is a pretty rare combination I dont think I have ever laid eyes on one. Cheap on powder too.

 

[Hawk54]

Sounds like the enchanted magical land of inexpensive muzzleloaders.

Yup! $200 for TC flintlock .50 Renegade is a steal. All of them are a steal if they are in good condition.

 

[PotomacRanger]

Where's this shop?

Lonaconing, Maryland

 

[PotomacRanger]

Yup! $200 for TC flintlock .50 Renegade is a steal. All of them are a steal if they are in good condition.

What is a better choice the .45, .50 or the .54 ? The Renegade or the Hawken ? They all are similar in price so I wouldnt mind spending the extra $100-$150.

 

[SDSmlf]

First off I would like to thank everyone who has shed a bit of their knowledge and their well worded opinions on my posts as it has helped a lot. My first question is about getting a starter rifle. I found another gun shop about 30 minutes away that is very cheap compared to the usual local shops. There are four rifles all Thompson Center two are Renegade Flintlocks .50 and .54 caliber and two are Hawken Flintlocks .50 and .54 caliber. The Renegade .50 is $200 and the Renegade .54 is $275. The Hawken .50 is $300 and the .54 Hakwen is $350. All sale come with a box of Hornady round balls .490 or .530 and a 100ct of pre lubed patches .010". This gun shop also had some Goex 2F and 3F powder limit of 2lbs of powder per purchase and he had 2lbs of each to I bought it up. I figured this seems like a good deal and would help me learn around a Flintlock before I upgraded to a nice proper Longrifle. Really I would like to have a cheap starter to see if I will stick with the Flintlock and one I can learn on before I spend big money on a proper rifle. So out of these four rifles which is best ? All are in pretty decent condition no rust at all or damage. All were built in the early 80's with the Hawken .50 being built in 1990 as the newest.
My next question is about a Kibler Longrifle. I got a couple PM's from Forum members all agreeing that the Kibler is the way to go for a nice proper flintlock. I want a Kibler Colonial with a Cherry stock havent decided on caliber yet. Are they easy to put together ? I havent done any woodworking since woodshop in highschool and that really wasnt anything to write home about. Do I need to buy a lot of tools too ? I see the price tag and I really dont want to mess the rifle up but I want to put it together myself. Anyone got any input for that question ? Thanks to all who reply and thanks to all who have replied on previous posts.

Do you have a borescope or at least a bore light that the selling shop would let you check the bore out with? A bad bore isn’t a deal killer, but it possibly adds at least $150 for a rebore to get your ‘starter’ gun up to par. Always nice to find gems, but sometimes you find yourself in a minefield if you are not careful.

 

[PotomacRanger]

Do you have a borescope or at least a bore light that the selling shop would let you check the bore out with? A bad bore isn’t a deal killer, but it possibly adds at least $150 for a rebore to get your ‘starter’ gun up to par. Always nice to find gems, but sometimes you find yourself in a minefield if you are not careful.

The shop owner shined a green light down the barrel and let me look with his videoscope. The .50 renegade has the worst inside but its not bad just some dirt and other gunk like dried up oil at the bottom. The .45 and the .54s look nice the shop owner just sent me a video of the .45's bore and its pretty clean same as both of those .54's

 

[Hawk54]

What is a better choice the .50 or the .54 ? The Renegade or the Hawken ? They all are similar in price so I wouldnt mind spending the extra $100-$150.

They are pretty much the same rifle with except one has brass furniture and the other steel. I would say the renegade is the more utilitarian hunting rifle and I like the flat butt plate. I like the looks of the Hawken better. For what they are asking I would buy one of each or all four. Get a .50 and a .54. I have both. A TC Hawken .50 was my first muzzle loader and still have it. For deer either will knock them flat. The .54 has a little more punch but the ammunition is a little harder to come by than the fifty. Can't go wrong with any one of them. Make sure the bore is good on the one(s) you get.

 

[64Springer]

Buy all four of them and sell them on GB for a profit.

 

[Hawk54]

Buy all four of them and sell them on GB for a profit.

Sell them on here for a profit.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@PotomacRanger, the best of these rifles will have the newer T/C lock and frizzen. These are better designed for reliable flintlock operation. The new hammer and frizzen are significant improvements. However, the replacement hammer and frizzen offered by RMS-Ox-Yoke are not that expensive. Check the locks for operation. You want lots of sparks directed into the pan. The L&R replacement lock is another option, but that is more expensive. Do get some black English flints to the best spark. Sure, the French amber flints are very good too.

The one to get is the one that has the best sparks and a good barrel. After that, how does it feel when you put the rifle to your shoulder. What I may like and fits me may not fit you. At these prices you can determine if you want to continue in this flintlock adventure with a different rifle, you should be able to get your money back.

A picture of the old TC Flintlock. Notice the deep cutout in the lower area where the neck meets the body of the cock.

View attachment 68945

Here is a picture of the new TC flintlock cock. Note the cutout area of the cock neck is missing.

View attachment 68949

When TC made these changes, they also changed the frizzen but the differences aren't obvious.

 

[2 shots]

this all sounds like it could get you in trouble it would be best for you to send them to me i would likely go for best bore overall.

 

[Hawk54]

this all sounds like it could get you in trouble it would be best for you to send them to me i would likely go for best bore overall.

I was kind of thinking the same thing. I would be more than happy to test them for him.

 

[SDSmlf]

The shop owner shined a green light down the barrel and let me look with his videoscope. The .50 renegade has the worst inside but it’s not bad just some dirt and other gunk like dried up oil at the bottom. The .45 and the .54s look nice the shop owner just sent me a video of the .45's bore and its pretty clean same as both of those .54's

If possible, maybe run a jag with a patch on it to clear the dirt and junk for a better look. I would pick the one(s) with the best bores (poor bores can be made to shoot accurately, but find it a PIA to keep them clean and running), then check that the stocks are not cracked (check around the lock screw, repairable if cracked, but if cracked, a price negotiation topic). Most everything else is likely noise. Then pick what you like from the ‘cream of the crop’. Based on the prices you have been quoted, worst case is you will break even if you decide to sell later.

Good luck making a purchase.

 

[Hermit Tim]

I like the best bore idea. But if they are all good, and it were me, and I was only going to buy one, it would be the Renegade .54. Renegades are tough and I'm not that wild about brass. It is simple and plain and that's why I prefer them over the Hawken. But your preference may be different. You can't go wrong with any of them at that price.

 

[Gtrubicon]

I’m partial to a 45, but it absolutely depends on what you are going to do with the rifle. Target or hunt? Personally I’d buy all of them and figure out which one suited me better, then sell the remainder.

 

[SDSmlf]

I’m partial to a 45, but it absolutely depends on what you are going to do with the rifle. Target or hunt? Personally I’d buy all of them and figure out which one suited me better, then sell the remainder.

My first question is about getting a starter rifle.

OP’s question was about getting a starter rifle, not getting a collection to evaluate and flip the extras. Still suggest they pick the best of the group that they like and go for it. Plenty of learning curve with a single rifle for someone starting out. The good old KISS concept.