Custom Makers Just Using Kits?

[Greebe]

I was curious if most of the custom makers out there are just assembling their rifles from kits or if they are actually manufacturing the lock, stock, and barrels of their rifles?

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[necchi]

I'll go out on a limb here and say most are making their rifles from purchased "Components", not really all the parts supplied in kit form from any of the supply houses, but select pieces that are chosen for their project.

I know of one local Gent that does indeed make all his stuff and those rifles run 10-30K for museum quality ($10,0000-30,000!)
Hershel House, John Donelson, there are others that do indeed make all the items but the time involved has to be compensated somehow,,

 

[Greebe]

OK, that was what I was thinking. So basically the rifles you get from most custom makers would be made from the same parts that we can buy? So more or less a custom rifle would have the same quality parts, just vary in the craftsmanship of the build? Thanks.

 

[BrownBear]

....just vary in the craftsmanship of the build?

And how!

Kinda like, anyone can go into a hardware store and buy lumber, but a great craftsman uses it to turn out fine furniture and I build clunks. :rotf:

 

[nchawkeye]

Few have the equipment to completely make a barrel or lock...Wood must be cured...Most American long rifles prior to the American Revolution used locks and barrels from Europe ...So it's PC for a gun to be stocked by a maker..

I believe it was Turner Kirkland that said plenty of builders can take $350 worth of parts and make a $350 rifle...An artist can take those same parts and produce a $2,000 rifle...

 

[George T.]

That is a very good point! Geo. T.

 

[Stumpkiller]

OK, that was what I was thinking. So basically the rifles you get from most custom makers would be made from the same parts that we can buy?

Yep.

Here's a $21 scapel. Care to try cosmetic surgery on yourself?

I can make a $400 rifle out of $800 in parts, as many can here. Few are the folks who can make a $3,500 rifle out of $800 in parts.

 

[Don Steele]

Stumpkiller you beat me to it..!!! :rotf:
I've kept myself from ordering a nice parts set from anyone for that reason. I'd be lucky if I ended up with a $350.00 rifle..!!
EVEN IF I woke up tomorrow with the skill...I don't have the tools, a shop set-up for it, nor any of the consumable supplies that go into building a rifle. To assemble all of the above, and just build one, or maybe two good ones would be ludicrous.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have no qualms about turning over "kit" parts to a gunsmith to fashion me a muzzleloader. That's what I did with John Donelson and Mike Brooks and they turned out splended muzzleloaders for me that were FAR beyond what I could have done, or might never accomplish, with years of practice.

 

[George T.]

Like has been said if you found a gunsmith that made everything from scratch it would cost a fortune. I agree with the post that said that most locks were imported as were the trigger sets. If they had a real demand for their rifles there would not be time for the parts. There is plenty of skill required to put a firearm together from parts of different makers.

I for one would not call that a kit!

Geo. T.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Greebe, while I wholeheartedly agree with what Stumpy and the others have said (and probably fall into the category of those who can build a $400 gun from $800 in parts), there is no greater satisfaction than taking those parts even if it's just a kit or a mixture of parts maybe including a precarve stock, and building something that you can use and enjoy. I've built 4 rifles ( 2 long rifles, a chunk gun and a halfstock) and while none will win any kind of beauty contest (they're certainly not the quality of a Brooks or a House or any other well known builder, they have won a few matches and/or gotten game. Some were made with precarves, some with rough blanks. Some big builders use precarves, completely finished locks, triggers and other parts. Nothing wrong with that. As was said earlier, colonial period smiths were importing locks from Europe and buying their barrels from barrel mills just like we do now.

If you have any mechanical skill or woodworking skill, it certainly makes a big difference. Some guys seem to be able to do anything and make it look easy. Some slobs like me know just enough to get themselves in trouble. But I for one won't give up. I'm slowly getting a little better at some things, even woodworking! I made the mule ear lock for my chunk gun and now I'm starting on a lock hand forged from wrought iron. When it's done, I'll start on another rifle with more handmade parts. Hopefully, it'll be a little more like those I've admired for 40 years.

I think I may have drifted a bit, but I'll try to get back. Custom builders also have to build what the client wants. In some cases that includes using a precarve or other part that the client wants used in the build due to a particular grain or shape they like, or if the client wants the gun within a shorter timeframe it may be best to use parts closer to the finished state. I can tell you for a fact that if a gunbuilder had to make all the parts of a gun and then put them all together, I doubt that a handful of shooters in this country could afford one. Well, I've blathered on enough.

 

[pargent]

Well 300 years ago that is exactly what all those in the gun trade did they selectively purchased their required parts and assembled them into finished guns . :thumbsup:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You can sometimes see Stumpkiller's point among guns for sale on Track of The Wolf. Preshaped stocks often leave a large portion of wood on the lock mortise to the rear of the lock. Some novice builders then fail to remove some of that wood, thinking ... I suspect, that the extra wood is supposed to be there. I have seen some rather heavily carved rifles that have this teltale mistake, instead of having a symetric border around the opening that holds the lock. Another mistake is a poorly inlet lock with gaps allowing moisture into the working areas of the lock. I'd rather pay for a builder to fit all of the basic parts right and tight, rather than have a lock, a tang, or a trigger that's sorta mounted, but the rest of the rifle is heavily embellished.

LD

 

[stinkyfeet]

I look at it like cars so many times people think they can go to the auto parts store buy the parts and repair the car themselves. Once they start the job they realize their in over their head have a half torn apart car, the auto parts store won't take the parts back and a garage if they will do the work (usually won't at this point) charges way more then normal because of the risk involved with working harder to fix damaged or missing parts. Sometimes the headache isn't worth the trouble and your better off letting someone else do it from the beginning. I understand its a lot of peoples dream to build there own gun and pass it down throughout the generations. Hint: many builders/muzzleloading shops offer classes that are very reasonable when you purchase the parts from them and they will walk you through the building process and assist you as needed will you likely end up with a $2000 gun from a $1500 dollar investment no but you will end up with a gained knowledge and appreciation for the time effort and skill of the experienced builders and have the gun you made yourself, that fits you perfectly of should at least, sights that are clear and located where you need them. I built my first part set in a class a 43 cal TN MT Rifle and still have it today and man theres some major mess ups on the gun, however they offered great ways to fix the mess up to make it look like you added something else cool to the gun. And the best part of the deal if you spend that much time with a person side by side building a gun your going to gain a new connection within the sport. Just my take on it.

 

[Billnpatti]

Don't be so sure that you can't build a rifle from a kit with minimal tools. I had a friend who was a salesman and spent a lot of time on the road in motel rooms alone. He carried a muzzleloading kit with him all the time and built several rifles and smoothbores in his motel rooms with just a few handtools. He told me that he carried a large plastic dropcloth that he spread on the floor when he worked to protect from wood chips and dust. He also had an old blanket that he spread on the motel room table where he did his work. Somehow he did it all and managed to turn out some pretty nice looking rifles in motel rooms with a minimum of tools. Of course, he started with a 95% inlet stock and worked from there.

 

[Vaino]

I've been building MLers since 1977 and it's been an evolution to say the least. Locks were of poor quality, so I bought Siler flintlock "kits" and assembled them into locks much better than available at that time. Did this on the first 4 LRs. Also made all the parts w/ the exception of the bbls, buttplates and trigger guards. Most of my builds have been from blanks because it seems the precarves I rec'd have had "glitches"...I prefer to make my own "glitches".

As some quality locks became available, no longer did them....but still to this day, do the parts mentioned above.

Have done parts sets {"kits"} and then use all the parts included....a big time saver and the finished product is on par w/ the blank builds and unless one is familiar w/ "kits", most won't recognize a "kit build" as such.

Most builders use many purchased parts as a way of competing in a very limited market....only the "famous" builders can make all the parts and charge accordingly......Fred

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Most real "custom" builders start from the stick after having someone else put in the barrel and rr channel and groove. This is to save time as the fellows they have do this procedure are set up for it. Having it done to a stick allows for creating exactly what they want as opposed to being stuck with a certain set of drops, etc. If a quality kit like a chambers is suitable for the particular build or requested, some will start with those. Some make all their own parts but the barrel and lock. Some also make those. Most use parts available on the market that are suited to the build. That said, the market has many parts available that some builders will not use as they are inferior or incorrect.
I am not a custom builder but I inlet my own barrels in house and attempt to make manh of my own parts.
My friend and mentor Jim Hash made many that were all hand made by him. He also used some chambers locks and some had barrels made by Getz, and others on other builds while making everything else. He rifled most of his rifle guns. I have one gun he made where he only bought the lock, a Chambers early Germanic which he completely worked over and then cased.

 

[Claude Mathis]

I can make a $400 rifle out of $800 in parts, as many can here. Few are the folks who can make a $3,500 rifle out of $800 in parts.

We can buy the same guitar Eric Clapton plays too. :wink:

 

[contrarian]

If you REALLY want a hand-made rifle :

"Because of the long rifle's handsome appearance and its reputation as an especially American tool, modern day Williamsburg gunsmiths regularly make them for enthusiasts. The waiting list is long, about four years, and the price for a weapon is high, averaging $20,000."

- http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/autumn00/gunsmith.cfm

 

[jdkerstetter]

Last I spoke with the 'smiths at Williamsburg they were still allowed to buy their locks and barrels just as the colonials did.

They do make about 3 barrels a year for demonstration purposes. If you get a gun made on one of those barrels the price will be substantially more than the $20K starting price.

Enjoy, J.D.