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ebiggs said:
Your obviously looking for an arguement, which unfortunately is how these threads always seem to end up. That was not at all what I ment.
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Custom vs Production
- Thread starter 410-er
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Your obviously looking for an arguement, which unfortunately is how these threads always seem to end up. That was not at all what I ment.
In a custom gun you can get exactly what you want, based on your personal taste. Hand fit, hand finished pieces which cannot be machine produced.
The range of styles, time periods, and calibers is not available in production guns as far as I know.
I find that the historical draw of the non-mass produced guns makes them attractive. Not all guns appeal to everyone, nor fit everyone.
Production guns have worked very well for many, many years. They have a definite portion of the market, but for a traditional rifle, choices are limited.
For the money I could spend on a production piece, I am buying parts to make my own, personally designed rifle. I like that thought...my design.
High quality parts are available that make owning an accurate, well finished piece a given.
Custom? Maybe not. Customized? Definitely.
American made, handfit, all American rifle.
Will I now look down my nose at my old CVA?
Nah, it owes me nothing, has taken deer, and is a blast to shoot. Without it, I wouldn't be studying rifle schools, makers, furniture, stock design and all the custom elements of rifle design. It would be like thinking my old H&R single shot wasn't worth carrying as a youth.
Read, study, go to shows, ask questions and decide what's right for you to buy, own and take pride and pleasure in.
Regards
The range of styles, time periods, and calibers is not available in production guns as far as I know.
I find that the historical draw of the non-mass produced guns makes them attractive. Not all guns appeal to everyone, nor fit everyone.
Production guns have worked very well for many, many years. They have a definite portion of the market, but for a traditional rifle, choices are limited.
For the money I could spend on a production piece, I am buying parts to make my own, personally designed rifle. I like that thought...my design.
High quality parts are available that make owning an accurate, well finished piece a given.
Custom? Maybe not. Customized? Definitely.
American made, handfit, all American rifle.
Will I now look down my nose at my old CVA?
Nah, it owes me nothing, has taken deer, and is a blast to shoot. Without it, I wouldn't be studying rifle schools, makers, furniture, stock design and all the custom elements of rifle design. It would be like thinking my old H&R single shot wasn't worth carrying as a youth.
Read, study, go to shows, ask questions and decide what's right for you to buy, own and take pride and pleasure in.
Regards
Your obviously looking for an arguement, which unfortunately is how these threads always seem to end up. That was not at all what I ment.
No sir, not all. I only want folks that don’t agree with the lore of a custom rifle, not to be belittled. I especially do not want to offend anyone either.
No sir, not all. I only want folks that don’t agree with the lore of a custom rifle, not to be belittled. I especially do not want to offend anyone either.
I have no problems with the newby's coming to the Muzzleloading forum. It is what the forum was started for.
By the same token, when I first suggested that we have a Gun Builders Bench, my idea was to have a place where folks who were totally new to building a rifle could ask questions and get help.
All in all, I think the forum is doing a very good job of helping newcomers learn about these muzzleloading guns, how to shoot them, some of their history, the possibilities of doing reenacting and making Traditional things.
As for whether a custom made gun or a factory made gun is the right one for someone, only they can determine that.
We all have opinions and they are usually based on our own experiences.
Generally speaking I suggest to someone totally new to muzzle loading that they look for a used factory gun at first.
If they enjoy the shooting and cleaning and they can save up the money a well built custom gun is a joy to own.
If they are only slightly interested or only want a muzzleloader for an occasional hunt then a factory gun will usually serve them well.
Here is where this forum and the experiences of our members can help them.
The folks who own some specific gun will be able to tell them about its good points and its bad points.
By the same token, when I first suggested that we have a Gun Builders Bench, my idea was to have a place where folks who were totally new to building a rifle could ask questions and get help.
All in all, I think the forum is doing a very good job of helping newcomers learn about these muzzleloading guns, how to shoot them, some of their history, the possibilities of doing reenacting and making Traditional things.
As for whether a custom made gun or a factory made gun is the right one for someone, only they can determine that.
We all have opinions and they are usually based on our own experiences.
Generally speaking I suggest to someone totally new to muzzle loading that they look for a used factory gun at first.
If they enjoy the shooting and cleaning and they can save up the money a well built custom gun is a joy to own.
If they are only slightly interested or only want a muzzleloader for an occasional hunt then a factory gun will usually serve them well.
Here is where this forum and the experiences of our members can help them.
The folks who own some specific gun will be able to tell them about its good points and its bad points.
When 410-er asked his question on custom vs production, he set no guidelines.
1.Traditional/HC/PC
2.Hunting/target shooting
3.Full/half stock.
4.Investment/user
ETC.
He didn't specify studied authorities or August to October "veteran sounding" advice. He asked for reasons. It would seem to me that all input was welcome and he would sift through it.
When I asked a similar question a while back, I welcomed all input and did my own sorting. We should give him the same option.
Mike Broach
1.Traditional/HC/PC
2.Hunting/target shooting
3.Full/half stock.
4.Investment/user
ETC.
He didn't specify studied authorities or August to October "veteran sounding" advice. He asked for reasons. It would seem to me that all input was welcome and he would sift through it.
When I asked a similar question a while back, I welcomed all input and did my own sorting. We should give him the same option.
Mike Broach
I really can't afford the custom guns I would like to own and shoot, so I'm slowly learning to build them. No they're not going to go up in value, but I think I can make a $500 gun from $500 worth of parts.
Mike, we're really smart beginners around here.
Warmest Regards,
Robert
Mike, we're really smart beginners around here.
Warmest Regards,
Robert
paulvallandigham
Passed On
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HOW ABOUT:
" IF YOUR GONNA- DON'T GO HALF
CHOOSE A BUILDER WHO KNOWS HIS CRAFT
GO VISIT, CONSULT AND MEASURE
A FITTED GUN WILL GIVE YOU PLEASURE "
I think the meter is better in this version.But, its still your words, Coot. Nicely done, BTW.
:hatsoff:
" IF YOUR GONNA- DON'T GO HALF
CHOOSE A BUILDER WHO KNOWS HIS CRAFT
GO VISIT, CONSULT AND MEASURE
A FITTED GUN WILL GIVE YOU PLEASURE "
I think the meter is better in this version.But, its still your words, Coot. Nicely done, BTW.
:hatsoff:
zimmerstutzen
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1. I got a custom flint rifle, plain stocked, not particularly historically correct but with plain minimal furniture for shooting and hunting, not for looking at. It doesn't have three pounds of silver and brass with five hundred hours of inlay work. It is a workin gun. The way it goes off and handles is a true dream. If my kids think twice about it I don't care.
I also have a North Star Trade gun for smoothie shooting. Again, a workin gun and it does so quite admirably.
Lastly as for the arguments. When I started in muzzleloading The former VP had not yet invented the internet. There were no blogs and sites. For almsot a year I had only books and magazines to teach me. I started going to weekend rendevouz. Watched, made stupid remarks and learned to watch more carefully, listen more carefully and to keep my mouth shut. A few old greybeards would sit around the fire at night and argue muzzleloader theory, construction, ballistics, etc. Bets would be made and the next morning after some shooting we would see who was right and who owed the beer. We would examine the construction of a rifle, discuss lock geometry, etc. It was an incredible schooling. It came out of friendly (mostly) and often animated argument. It was approached with the unspoken understanding that we'd all smile and compete against each other the next day with no grudges. As I see it there is no problm with debates/arguments like that. No name calling, changing the subject etc. Sometimes it was just two old men arguing and the rest of us were like the jury. We would ask questions, be the devil's advocate etc. It didn't take a thick skin to participate. Folks with thin skins often didn't get the format that we fell into. It was good. It saved me from making many mistakes. It permitted me to ask questions and listen to the divergent responses. However, unlike here, a person was expected to answer a question directed to him. Especially if the question started with Why. Name calling was rebuked. When some of us got into BPCR in the early 1980's we did the same thing at those gatherings. We may have discussed and debated things far beyond the beginners level at times. But it was a great classroom.
I also have a North Star Trade gun for smoothie shooting. Again, a workin gun and it does so quite admirably.
Lastly as for the arguments. When I started in muzzleloading The former VP had not yet invented the internet. There were no blogs and sites. For almsot a year I had only books and magazines to teach me. I started going to weekend rendevouz. Watched, made stupid remarks and learned to watch more carefully, listen more carefully and to keep my mouth shut. A few old greybeards would sit around the fire at night and argue muzzleloader theory, construction, ballistics, etc. Bets would be made and the next morning after some shooting we would see who was right and who owed the beer. We would examine the construction of a rifle, discuss lock geometry, etc. It was an incredible schooling. It came out of friendly (mostly) and often animated argument. It was approached with the unspoken understanding that we'd all smile and compete against each other the next day with no grudges. As I see it there is no problm with debates/arguments like that. No name calling, changing the subject etc. Sometimes it was just two old men arguing and the rest of us were like the jury. We would ask questions, be the devil's advocate etc. It didn't take a thick skin to participate. Folks with thin skins often didn't get the format that we fell into. It was good. It saved me from making many mistakes. It permitted me to ask questions and listen to the divergent responses. However, unlike here, a person was expected to answer a question directed to him. Especially if the question started with Why. Name calling was rebuked. When some of us got into BPCR in the early 1980's we did the same thing at those gatherings. We may have discussed and debated things far beyond the beginners level at times. But it was a great classroom.
matt denison
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Lastly as for the arguments. When I started in muzzleloading The former VP had not yet invented the internet. There were no blogs and sites. For almsot a year I had only books and magazines to teach me. I started going to weekend rendevouz. Watched, made stupid remarks and learned to watch more carefully, listen more carefully and to keep my mouth shut. A few old greybeards would sit around the fire at night and argue muzzleloader theory, construction, ballistics, etc. Bets would be made and the next morning after some shooting we would see who was right and who owed the beer. We would examine the construction of a rifle, discuss lock geometry, etc. It was an incredible schooling. It came out of friendly (mostly) and often animated argument. It was approached with the unspoken understanding that we'd all smile and compete against each other the next day with no grudges. As I see it there is no problm with debates/arguments like that. No name calling, changing the subject etc. Sometimes it was just two old men arguing and the rest of us were like the jury. We would ask questions, be the devil's advocate etc. It didn't take a thick skin to participate. Folks with thin skins often didn't get the format that we fell into. It was good. It saved me from making many mistakes. It permitted me to ask questions and listen to the divergent responses. However, unlike here, a person was expected to answer a question directed to him. Especially if the question started with Why. Name calling was rebuked. When some of us got into BPCR in the early 1980's we did the same thing at those gatherings. We may have discussed and debated things far beyond the beginners level at times. But it was a great classroom.
Very well said. Your description reminds me of my early days in the sport. I was the quiet guy sitting in the shadows listening and not talking. I had a production gun and didn't feel I was "qualified" to participate in those discussions - and I wasn't. But that production gun got me started and I learned a lot from shooting it and participating in the sport and competition. I was able to pick my mentors and study what they did and how they did it. It was soon enough apearant that a flintlock "custom" was needed to play seriously - at least for me. The difference is that I am a firearms enthusiast, not just a hunter or plinker. I want one of everything, modern, BP, rifled or smooth. You just cannot get that in production guns.
Very well said. Your description reminds me of my early days in the sport. I was the quiet guy sitting in the shadows listening and not talking. I had a production gun and didn't feel I was "qualified" to participate in those discussions - and I wasn't. But that production gun got me started and I learned a lot from shooting it and participating in the sport and competition. I was able to pick my mentors and study what they did and how they did it. It was soon enough apearant that a flintlock "custom" was needed to play seriously - at least for me. The difference is that I am a firearms enthusiast, not just a hunter or plinker. I want one of everything, modern, BP, rifled or smooth. You just cannot get that in production guns.
skunkskinner
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410-er said:
Easy to answer.
A good custom gun just looks so much better than a production gun ever will.
That's the only answer I'm sure of. :v
A custom gun with a slow twist barrel will outshoot(in the right hands)a production gun every time. It still comes down to economics! I have a bunch of custom guns now but when I was cutting my teeth in 72 I dreamed of that T/C Hawken that was 150.00 Might as well been 1500.00.Remember one thing. Buy the best quality you can afford and don't worry about others who build them selves up by tearing you down.There are many knowlegeable and humble folks on the mlforum who are not thread counters.
Good luck and Good shooting.
Nit Wit
Good luck and Good shooting.
Nit Wit
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wow i was born in 72 :shocked2:
As you've stated, you're already in the hunt for a custom. What are the advantages? Well, you get a hand made gun, that shoots like it's supposed to, that you can enjoy to whatever level of HC/PC you prefer. You can use your imagination and create something that is not particularly HC/PC and enjoy it just as much. I've had a half dozen or so TC sidelocks, and they're ol for hunting, and just enjoying shooting, not a thing wrong with that. But, I also have three customs, all flinters, and they're the cat's pajamas. Beautiful, and accurate. There's just something about a hand made gun, that conjures up thoughts of years gone by, and adventures long past. I was hooked the first time I shot a flint longrifle, not all that long ago. Don't be discouraged by the differing opinions. If you can afford one, then get some information, find out what fits you, and ask a bunch of questions.
I would highly recommend you give TVM a call and talk to Toni and she could give you more information than you could find in books, or on the net in years. That will go a long way to help you decide what you want and where to get it. A .45 is a fantastic place to start, all the makins' are easily found, and you won't need to cast ball right away, unless you just want to. You can shoot and enjoy any muzzleloader, factory or custom, but most of us here wanted to take the step into a truly hand built gun, and it changes the whole experience when you do. If you like muzzleloaders, and it appears you do, then you'll never be sorry. The only big thing I think you should keep in mind is fit, make sure the gun you buy fits you. I have one .36 flinter that is 14-1/2" LOP, with a 42" barrel, which is just too big a gun for me to shoot comfortably. I keep thinking I'll get rid of it, but never do, I just love the gun. It's up to you about worrying about PC/HC, some do, some don't, just have fun.
I would highly recommend you give TVM a call and talk to Toni and she could give you more information than you could find in books, or on the net in years. That will go a long way to help you decide what you want and where to get it. A .45 is a fantastic place to start, all the makins' are easily found, and you won't need to cast ball right away, unless you just want to. You can shoot and enjoy any muzzleloader, factory or custom, but most of us here wanted to take the step into a truly hand built gun, and it changes the whole experience when you do. If you like muzzleloaders, and it appears you do, then you'll never be sorry. The only big thing I think you should keep in mind is fit, make sure the gun you buy fits you. I have one .36 flinter that is 14-1/2" LOP, with a 42" barrel, which is just too big a gun for me to shoot comfortably. I keep thinking I'll get rid of it, but never do, I just love the gun. It's up to you about worrying about PC/HC, some do, some don't, just have fun.
"I've been here for ..what..? 8 years? and they still don't like me I'm politically incorrect,"
Good point 'dog I don't come here to win a popularlty contest I try to stay with the facts as best I know them and present the historic aspect for those who are interested as best to my knowlegde if someone does not care about that part the don't have to read about it.Some just seem to enjoy spreading BS like butter on toast or look for a fight when one is not there, pretty reflective of a cross section of people in general I would think.I am not sure many understand the depth of knowledge that is offered here by Mike, Matt, Okwaho and a few others who have stayed here when most with such to give have left.I can imaging a calmer setting if half a dozen or so were not here but that is always the case.I find comfort in the ignore setting so I am not tempted to respond and acclerate the issue, it is something to consider for those who never seem to like what one person has to say and always have to respond, though some are fun to poke with a stick now and then. at any rate one will likely never regret getting a well made/researched custom the same will not always hold true for production guns:wink:
Good point 'dog I don't come here to win a popularlty contest I try to stay with the facts as best I know them and present the historic aspect for those who are interested as best to my knowlegde if someone does not care about that part the don't have to read about it.Some just seem to enjoy spreading BS like butter on toast or look for a fight when one is not there, pretty reflective of a cross section of people in general I would think.I am not sure many understand the depth of knowledge that is offered here by Mike, Matt, Okwaho and a few others who have stayed here when most with such to give have left.I can imaging a calmer setting if half a dozen or so were not here but that is always the case.I find comfort in the ignore setting so I am not tempted to respond and acclerate the issue, it is something to consider for those who never seem to like what one person has to say and always have to respond, though some are fun to poke with a stick now and then. at any rate one will likely never regret getting a well made/researched custom the same will not always hold true for production guns:wink:
TG:
I guess most could agree that they are all good, just somes better than others.
Nit Wit
I guess most could agree that they are all good, just somes better than others.
Nit Wit
hanshi
Cannon
I don't think anyone so far has failed to make some sort of valid point and that's good. The more, the merrier.
I'm fortunate to own both OTC and custom guns. I've own a number of OTC's and have taken AT LEAST as many deer/small game with them as with the customs. I currently stable four OTC's and value them all. One I've had for 45 years. I seriously question whether custom guns are necessarily more accurate than OTC. I have three OTC rifles that can put five rounds through a soda straw without touching the sides up to 50 yards...only a slight exaggeration. My custom guns are all very plain; only one has even a patchbox. They are working guns. Are they "better" working guns than the OTC's? Absolutely not! Are they much better looking than the OTC's? Yes, except in one case where the OTC is striking. What I'm saying is that both have their place and both have value to the owner. Whenever possible, the buyer should go for the custom; but it's not always possible. In that case get an OTC and don't look back.
Custom guns are much better at retaining value and appreciating than OTC guns. And since they are "custom" - built exclusively in fit, etc - , they are more likely to be held in family and passed down as an heirloom. And they don't have to be fancy - think grandpa's engraved watch as opposed to a more expensive store bought.
I've never met a gun I didn't like (almost). The only caveat I have about OTC guns is the ones with a flint lock. You might keep that in mind and be prepared to (but not always, by any stretch) tinker to make it work. If it works as you require, you have a good gun and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. :v
I'm fortunate to own both OTC and custom guns. I've own a number of OTC's and have taken AT LEAST as many deer/small game with them as with the customs. I currently stable four OTC's and value them all. One I've had for 45 years. I seriously question whether custom guns are necessarily more accurate than OTC. I have three OTC rifles that can put five rounds through a soda straw without touching the sides up to 50 yards...only a slight exaggeration. My custom guns are all very plain; only one has even a patchbox. They are working guns. Are they "better" working guns than the OTC's? Absolutely not! Are they much better looking than the OTC's? Yes, except in one case where the OTC is striking. What I'm saying is that both have their place and both have value to the owner. Whenever possible, the buyer should go for the custom; but it's not always possible. In that case get an OTC and don't look back.
Custom guns are much better at retaining value and appreciating than OTC guns. And since they are "custom" - built exclusively in fit, etc - , they are more likely to be held in family and passed down as an heirloom. And they don't have to be fancy - think grandpa's engraved watch as opposed to a more expensive store bought.
I've never met a gun I didn't like (almost). The only caveat I have about OTC guns is the ones with a flint lock. You might keep that in mind and be prepared to (but not always, by any stretch) tinker to make it work. If it works as you require, you have a good gun and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. :v
Twice boom
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+1. Yea I too miss those guys.
Twice.
Twice.
hoochiepapa
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"Ain't nothin' like carryin' a long rifle into the woods".
I started on production ml's. Then I saw the beauty in a long rifle, even without drop dead gorgeous wood, and the fact that it's what was carried by our forefathers, and won our independence, and that's the road I took, and I'll never look back.
Anybody interested in some used cf's? :idunno:
I started on production ml's. Then I saw the beauty in a long rifle, even without drop dead gorgeous wood, and the fact that it's what was carried by our forefathers, and won our independence, and that's the road I took, and I'll never look back.
Anybody interested in some used cf's? :idunno:
A greenhorn's opinion: I just got into this hobby two years ago. Originally began with a TC Hawken to learn how to shoot a flintlock.
I wanted an inexpensive gun at first. Yet, moving up to my .54 cal TVM Early Lancaster "Mabel" was a natural progression. While neither of my flinters are historically correct, I have immensely enjoyed both of them. While the TC is a good lookin' gun already, the TVM's design, quality, and appearance put it in another league. While beautiful and decorated with excellent curly wood, a few custom engravings, and german silver trimmings, I really don't mind bumping and banging her on rocks and scratching her on brambles and trees while out in the field. To me the marks left by these events adds to her "heirloomness." I wanted a pretty, working gun rather than a cabinet queen. I would like my grandchildren some day to look down at the marks left on her during my wilderness adventures. I want them to see the small scratch my 18th century replica screwdriver made when I was securing the screw and slipped; I want them to see the care I put into keeping her waxed and oiled; I want them to look down at the small C carved on the thumbpiece and know Mabel belongs to them now because that letter stands for their family name.
For me, an heirloom is based not just on beauty but on the scars, cares, and memories an object holds. Some might see these as marring the perfection of a fine rifle yet I see them as symbolic of the owner's life. The object itself is only the foundation upon which the "heirloom" is built. It becomes part of the history and memories of the family no matter how and why it was originally built because we value it as a repository of history.
I wanted an inexpensive gun at first. Yet, moving up to my .54 cal TVM Early Lancaster "Mabel" was a natural progression. While neither of my flinters are historically correct, I have immensely enjoyed both of them. While the TC is a good lookin' gun already, the TVM's design, quality, and appearance put it in another league. While beautiful and decorated with excellent curly wood, a few custom engravings, and german silver trimmings, I really don't mind bumping and banging her on rocks and scratching her on brambles and trees while out in the field. To me the marks left by these events adds to her "heirloomness." I wanted a pretty, working gun rather than a cabinet queen. I would like my grandchildren some day to look down at the marks left on her during my wilderness adventures. I want them to see the small scratch my 18th century replica screwdriver made when I was securing the screw and slipped; I want them to see the care I put into keeping her waxed and oiled; I want them to look down at the small C carved on the thumbpiece and know Mabel belongs to them now because that letter stands for their family name.
For me, an heirloom is based not just on beauty but on the scars, cares, and memories an object holds. Some might see these as marring the perfection of a fine rifle yet I see them as symbolic of the owner's life. The object itself is only the foundation upon which the "heirloom" is built. It becomes part of the history and memories of the family no matter how and why it was originally built because we value it as a repository of history.
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