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CVA Side by Side (12 gage)

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roger sells

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I had my neighbor show up tonigh with a CVA side by side 12 gage he had just purchased. He asked if I knew what load should be used in the gun. Any of you guys own one of these and has a good starting recommendation with shot and powder?

Also, he has decided that he wants to try to shoot a ball and patch in it as well to try and kill a deer. I haven't talked to anyone that has done this and told him to wait and see if I could get some info from someone who has experience with this type of gun. Anybody tried to use the CVA double to hunt deer with a ball and patch?

Thanks for the help.
Roger Sells
 
I load 2 3/4 drams of FFg powder( 76 grains) behind a 1 1/8 oz load of shot for hunting Dove. I load the same powder charge and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot for hunting pheasants, and rabbits. Mine has NO choke in either barrel. But, I have killed Pheasants out to 33 yards with the 1 1/4 oz. load. I consider 30 yards to be the practical limit for this gun, with the best of loads.

I do not consider the CVA S x S to be a deer gun for shooting PRB. This is a cheaply made gun, and the barrels are NOT regulated for firing any kind of solid projectile. You might find a load that will get ONE barrel to shoot close to POA, but its highly unlikely that you will get both barrels to shoot to the same POA, at any distance. Regulating the existing barrels would require separating the two barrels at the muzzle, at the very least, by removing the ribs, and then using wedges or spacers to move the barrels to the same POI at a given yardage with a given load. If you hired a skilled gunsmith to do this work, it would cost many times what that gun sold for new.

My advice is to use it for what it is- a shotgun for taking upland game. Don't try to shoot steel shot in it, either. The metal is too soft. Non-toxic shot that approach lead shot in weight, or specific gravity, may work, if you use the correct thick shotcups, but its not going to make this a 40 yard waterfowl gun no matter what you do. There are better guns on the market for hunting Waterfowl. Pedersoli makes some choked 12 and 10 gauge guns that are better choices for waterfowl hunting. And the same company makes a double rifle which is a better choice for hunting deer and bear.( the Kodiak).
 
I have had a cva double for a little over two years. I load 70 grains of powder by volume with 4 overshot cards same amount of #6 shot and cap it off with 2 overshot cards. Does a good job on squirels.


The shotgun is a lot of fun to shot, however, I have had some problems with sear springs and trigger.

Stan
 
I had trouble with the triggers right off the bat, but a gunsmith fixed them. I don't recall now what he did. I have not had a good reason to take the locks out of the stock to examine the parts. I suppose that is due, as its been a couple of years since its been shot.
 
I just picked one of those up for this spring's turkey hunt and it worked well. I used 70 gr of 1f and 1-3/4 oz of #5 shot, but that was a "magnum" turkey load - 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 would be better for general use.
but while I was patterning it, I tried a few shots with 70 grs and a hand cast .700 RB. Like paul says, niether barrel shoots to the same POA, so you basicly have a very short range deer gun. that load will defintley do in a deer, it's just a matter limiting your shots to ranges you can reliably hit. Or at the very least, sighting in the most accurate barrel and using the other tube as close range back up.
I'll bet that over the last century, lots of deer have fallen to old doubles just like that gun.
 
I just got this kit from my brother which he had for 20+ years. He will get it back for Christmas as a "gift". I would not say that these shotguns are a thing of beauty nor is the workmanship above average but it will serve the purpose as a shooter and a "brush beater". The triggers are terrible the locks are useable just don't expect too much from it - A Winchester Model 21 it's NOT!
IMG_1322.jpg
 
Thanks for the information. I will print the info and pass it on to my neighbor.
Roger Sells
 
The 2 3/4 Dram, 1 1/4 oz #5 shot load I described is a " Long Range " duck load used by commercial Duck Hunters on the Illinois River back in the 1870s using MLers with no choke. I got that load from a reprint of a period article in one of the fore-runner publications of The American Rifleman, that was republished in The American Rifleman about 30 years ago.

I have tried that load in both Black Powder, and Smokeless powder versions in a cylinder bore MLer, and modern cartridge guns, that are full choked. The load works quite well in both guns.

Using the larger load( 1 3/8 oz of #5 shot) for Turkey makes sense, and takes advantage of the fact that a MLer allows the loading of more shot than you may put into a modern shotgun casing, at least without going to a longer casing. For that load, you might want to consider using the 3" magnum 12 gauge casing in a modern gun. I don't own a 12 gauge that shoots the magnum casings, or the newer 3 1/2" casing, either.
 
Hello Gang
Well I have a Navy arms side by side in 12 awesome little gun , same thing though noty a winchester 21, but a darn good bush and waterfowler
well cheers... a loyalist Dawg :hatsoff:
 
The Navy Arms guns were better made than the CVA guns. Pedersoli now makes shotguns on par with the older Navy Arms models, with chrome "lined " barrels, and screw in choke tubes. IN both 10 and 12 gauge. They would be my recommendation for someone want to shoot Non-toxic shot for waterfowl using BP.
 
Flintlocksetc.com has the Pedersoli doubles in 12 gauge and fixed chokes as well as the screw ins. They can be had cyclinder and modified, or their "trap special" with tighter chokes. Pretty impressive supply of parts in stock as well.

Generally speaking one has to take the choke tubes out when loading the multi choked guns.

That said, the Pedersolis are quite good guns.
 
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Not if you use OS cards only. They bend enough to fit down through even a full choke, and can then be turned around. Use 4 OS cards in place of an OP wad, and cushion wad, then use 2 os cards to hold the shot in place. All the cards should have an off-center hole put in them to allow air to escape through the card while you are loading them. Don't align the cards, to that all the holes are in the same line. This is a great way to load a MLer in the field. You only carry OS cards, which limits all the stuff you drag along.

Iron Jim Rackham came up with this system, and demonstrated its efficacy with both pictures of targets showing before and after targets, and pictures of him in Upstate New York after successfully taking a couple of Woods grouse with his new, Mike Brooks built, 20 gauge fowler.
 
That's a very reasonable system, and one fix. Won't work with heavy shot (or steel) though.

Personally, I like the fixed choke. Richard Beauchamp told me I'm a bloody purist, but I think that it's because I find it easier to use.

I'm just letting people know that they have a choice (or some choices)--not that they need to make my choice.

In that vein, to jug choke a Pedersoli you have to get the chrome out first.

Or to turn it around, hot soapy water and one (count 'em, pne) patch will clean out both (chrome lined) barrels in about a minute, and no flash-rust! Pretty cool.
 
Not with plastic shot cups, it won't. But if you make your own cups with heavy paper- like coin wrapper, or index card, you can fit them down through the choke, and get good patterns. YOu do have to use the OS cards to seal the bore, in front of the powder, but that is a given.

I recommend the Chromed barrel's too, because the hard surface makes it much easier to clean, and keep lead from sticking to the inside of the bore as much. With Non-toxic shot, using paper cups, you improve matters if you grease the outside of the cups, so that they slide over the bore, and soften the BP residue that is left behind.
 
Hi Paul!

It's sure been a while since we last wrote! Things have been busy...and now I'm buying a slightly used 10 gauge Pedersoli Side-by-Side, the model without choke tubes. I'll be going after clay birds with it. Got hooked using a SBS 12 gauge that was borrowed from a fellow competitor at a shoot back in April! I plan on using my usual 70 grain load of 3Fg Goex, a over-powder cardboard wad, some sort of wine-cork looking thing that the guy who sold me the gun told me to use, about 1.5 oz of 7.5 shot, and some coin wrappers to hold it all in!

Anything else I need to know?

Thanks!

Dave
From the Communist Republic of NJ
 
I have not shot a 10 gauge shotgun. An 8 gauge, and my 12 gauge, but not a 10 gauge.

But, there are all kinds of wads being sold and at some point you need to try a variety of different products to see what works.

MEASURE THE BORE OF THE NEW GUN, SO THAT YOU KNOW EXACTLY what the bore dimensions are. Its a royal PITA to find out the wads you bought in anticipation of its arrival are TOO SMALL! OR TOO LARGE. That is my best advice.

I think I already talked about Iron Jim Rackham's loading advice using ONLY OS cards, and forgetting about carrying OP wads, and Cushion wads. Over the years I have seen MLers shooting all kind of wads in their shotguns. There is a bunch of avid shotgun shooters here in Central Illinois that swear by using PINK Styrofoam wads, they cut themselves out of sheets of Styrofoam they buy. Makes for some very distinctive LITTER, IMHO, but I can't say they work better than anything else. The guys were wiping a solid shortening, like Lard, around the outside edges of these styrofoam cushion wads, and they claimed that this prevented a plastic build up in their guns. I have greased paper shot cups, and I have greased the bore in front of a load of shot, and in both cases, the streaks of leading that normally are in the barrel after a shooting session at the range are NOT there. I have not shot these at pattern paper, to see if this also reduces the flattening of the outside pellets as they rub against the sides of the bore on their way out the muzzle, but I expect to see some lessening of this condition. The patterns seem to be fuller, ( more dense) when I lube the barrel , than when I shoot the loads out a "bare" bore.

If you do use a very soft cushion wad, You might want to put an OS card on top of the cushion wad to provide a hard, flat surface to push the shot out the barrel, so that the shot column exits the muzzle as one unit. I did this with my wet lubed cushion wads, and it helped make uniform patterns out of ragged ones very quickly. I believe my cushion wads were so wet that shot pellets were imbedding in the cushion wad, and not releasing from the wad at the muzzle. Using the OS card stopped this.

Jim King( Zonie) gave me a tip on lubing cushion wads, and I think it does work. He puts oil in a shallow dish or plate, and simple rolls the side of the cushion wad in this oil, then removed the cushion wad, and bags it. The oil on the edge is enough to lube the bore, but there is not enough oil put on the wad to make it really soft through out. I just have to remember to lube those cushion wads the night before I go shooting, so I am not trying to do it at the loading bench.
 
i love my cva 12 g sxs
the amounts of load i concur with
i have had not trouble iwth locks or trigger...
 
Thanks for the advice! You're right about measuring BEFORE you buy supplies...The friend I'm buying this shotgun from told me to get 11 gauge supplies, not 10 gauge. He gave me a bag of 11 gauge OP cards (circle-fly) and shot cushions that almost look like wine corks...he says all I need is the OS cards.

When I borrowed the 12 gauge a few months ago, the owner supplied everything that I needed, and wouldn't take a dime for any of the supplies! He's a Re-enactor and a fine shooter in his own right! We used a ox-yoke pre-lubed wad over the powder, then about an ounce of shot (#8), then just the paper wrapper that he carried his charges in on top of the shot. He was using one piece of paper crumpled-up, but I wanted the charge to stay well-packed, so I used a second piece of the crumpled paper to keep things tight. It must have worked, since I won the match with the borrowed gun!

I'm thinking about rubbing a little wonder-lube around the edges of the shot wad to keep the fouling soft since none of the materials will have any lube on them and my son and I will need to fire at least 20 shots with the gun of Sunday.

Ideally I should be using 2Fg, but 3Fg is all I have ever bought for the .50 trade rifle and the six-guns. Will 70 grains of 3Fg do O-K? I figure that the difference in granulation may give me enough velocity with a 1.5 ounce load of shot, and possibly result in an effective 2 3/4 to 3 dram equivalent.

Will check for your response later today...have to get some work done now! Thanks!

Dave
 
Take a look at the V.M. Starr article on Shotgun loads at Bob Spenser's Website, "Black Powder Notebook". He gives advice on 10 gauge loads.

I checked my Hodgdon Data Manual for 10 ga. loads, and it starts with 102 grains of FFg( 3 3/4 dram) for a " Light Load", behind 1 1/4 oz. of shot. MV is listed at 1050 fps.

The "Heavy" Load is 4 1/2 drams( 124 grains) of FFg, and 1 1/2 oz of shot, for 1067 fps.MV.

You do want to keep the velocity UNDER the Speed of sound( 1135 fps.), especially in a cylinder bore gun. Otherwise, you will blow the patterns wider than necessary.

I don't think you are going to damage anything using 3Fg powder in a 10 gauge, but understand the powder will burn faster, and give you higher pressure, and, presumably, higher MV. More important it kicks the soft shot harder, causing more deformation ( obturation) of the soft shot, particularly at the back of the shot column. I am not convinced that this obturation is solved by using cushion wads- at least I didn't see any improvement in patterns. Perhaps in a choked shotgun, results will be different. Hit the patterning board.

If you check the Lyman Shotshell Reloading manual, they have a chart that shows various MVs, and then down range velocities, Pellet energy, Time in flight, and drop in flight, for 20, 40, & 60 yards. Of course, they are using smokeless powders, and the MVs are all mostly faster than anything you can get out of BP, except with light loads in small gauge guns. But, as the load goes down range, velocities drop and its not that hard to figure out what your ML, PB load performance will be.

The first thing you should notice is how Quickly shot pellets, no matter what size, lose velocity within the first 20 yards.

That data is what convinced me to stay away from FFFg powder in 24 and larger gauge shotguns.[ I do believe that FFFg powder is useful in .28, and .410 bore shotguns.]

If you wrap your shot in a paper " cartridge", closed and taped at both ends, you can shoot it across the screens of a chronograph to get your own reading on MV for a given load, without endangering your chronograph.

I would not trust the readings I would get if I dared to put my chronograph out at 20, 40, or further yards, simply because that solid "slug " of pellets is going to have less drag than the individual pellets that make up the load, at those distances. The readings would be HIGH compared to the actual velocities of shot at those same distances.

However, if you take the velocity you get at the Muzzle, using your chronograph, and then use that chart in the Lyman book, you should be able to find out how quickly the pellets will lose velocity based on your load, and how much pellet energy is correspondingly lost.

I consider BP shotguns without choke to be 25-30 yard guns, MAX. You can do a bit better than that, but the opening patterns makes it a function of luck as you get further from the muzzle. If you choke these guns, then I believe you can move the range out to 40 yards, with some patterns, and pellet sizes.

A lot of modern Shotgun shooters consider their full choke guns shooting smokeless powder to be quite capable of killing game out past 50 yards. That may or may not be true, based on choke, how long the choke is in their barrel, the size shot, the total volume of the shot, and powder charge used.

I do not believe you are going to make a BP shotgun into a 50 or 60 yards gun with any load of birdshot used, regardless of the choke. The Vast majority of game birds are killed inside 30 yards, regardless of species.

With waterfowl, you may have to pass up a shot that you could have taken with a choked modern shotgun, but there are plenty of shots passed even with modern guns, because the birds are still out of range. The fun of hunting waterfowl is seeing if you can turn that flight back around to come back over you set, but lower, or to actually call the flight back and down to your set of decoys.
 
I have one of the Pedersoli 10's with the cyl/mod barrels, and use a nitro card, a lubed cusion wad, and an over shot wad. It seams to pattern decent with any balanced load (same volume of shot and powder). For ducks I shoot 90 grains of powder and 1 1/4oz of Bismuth #4s. It seems to knock ducks out of the air like they were hit with a 2x4 inside of 35 yards. All you have to do is give them that extra 2-3 foot of lead (takes some getting used to after the high speed steel in modern guns) :thumbsup:
 
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