CW-era Military Repro Recommendations

[dchawken]

I've been shooting Hawken-style percussion sidelocks, but I've become interested in getting a reproduction of a CW-era military weapon, and would welcome any opinions. I don't plan on doing any reenacting, but I would like for the gun to meet basic standards of historical accuracy. Even more inportantly, I'd like for it to be accurate and powerful enough for deer hunting at about 100 yrds. Not that hunting is the main use, just a standard for performance and accuracy.

I've read great things about Enfields (2 or 3 band?), and not much about Springfields (1861 or 1863?). Zouaves have gotten good recs., but they don't seem to have really been used much. Good Parker-Hale and Whitworth repros seem to be out of my price range, besides, I'd like to use something more commonly in use.

Add to that the range of manufacturers. Dixie, ArmiSport, NavyArms, Pedersoli, etc., as well as a Japanese firm I can't recall. Most of the reviews tend to split hairs on historical accuracy (no offence) without reference to performance.

I know this isn't a cheap proposition, but I think $700 is my limit. I'd rather spend less. Any thoughts?

 

[Tumblernotch]

Hey dchawken, There are a lot of muskets to choose from. Prices have gone up considerably in the past few years, but you can get about all of them for under $700. Right now, the basic weapons available are the different models of Springfield muskets including the '55 and '61 Models in .58 cal., the Confederate Richmond w/low hump lockplate in .58, the 2 band P56 Enfield in .58 and the 3 band P53-3 Enfield in .58. Also available starting a few years ago are the '42 Model Springfield Smoothbore and '42 Rifled Muskets in .69 cal. You can still get the Zouave, but if the reenacting bug ever does bite you, you will probably have to get another one to carry.

Taylor's & Co. www.taylorsfirearms.com has a list of muskets that they carry and the prices. It's a good place to start, but shop around for prices. Also, if you are near a CW reenactment event, go and visit the sutlers. Sometimes they have good used muskets for sale at a reasonable price...emphasis on sometimes.

I shoot a Richmond rifle musket that I had made years ago before they became commercially available and I have owned Enfields, Zouaves and original Springfields. I can't tell you which is best as far as accuracy. I prefer Springfield pattern arms as far as stock configuration (comfort), but accuracy is about equal between them and Enfields. The Zouave is an accurate rifle, but was never used in the CW. 10,001 were made by Remington but were never issued.

I don't know if EuroArms still makes muskets or not, but I used to own of their Enfields that was an excellent piece. I wish I still had it, but I just had to trade it for a Whitworth. Pedersoli has a pretty good rep for their guns. Parker-Hale was the best of the Enfield makers, but according to their website, they no longer build muskets. And you will pay a premium price for any still available. The Japanese firm you mention, (I can't remember the name either) builds an excellent Charleville smoothbore but I don't know about their CW guns.

Basically, you can buy a new CW musket for between $450 and $675. Shop around and check the want ads in CW reenacting magazines as well as going to reenactments. There is always somebody getting out of it and sometimes they sell cheap. ::

 

[George Wyman]

You might check the N-SSA bulletin board, buy and sell forum. Also, stop at the Spring Nationals in Winchester, VA in late May. Many sutlers and everything you could imagine is there. Originals and repros. All Civil War.
Check the website. I don't now how to post a link yet but it is[url] n-ssa.org[/url]

 

[jdstrang]

dc:

All good advice so far. Fact is, whatever repro you choose, it will need some minimal trigger work to take it to a manageable trigger pull, and some sight work to alter it from the battlefield configuration of shooting high to more practical use configuration.

And the best advice is to come to the N-SSA's Nationals, if you can at all swing it. Nationals runs from May 18-22 this year, at Fort Shenandoah about 7 miles north of Winchester, Va. Non-members are welcome to patronize the sutler village, where there will be for sale examples of damn near everything ever shot during the War of the Rebellion, and most with the triggerwork and sightwork already done. Further, there will be legions of folks more than willing to give you their best advice as to what you want and what you need.

Drop me an email off-board if you want more N-SSA info, but you're getting good gun facts already. :thumbsup:

 

[cytorg]

Here is a couple of link's for you. These are Italian but have been de-farbed, in other words, Italian marks removed and a few parts replaced for historical accuracy.
Zimmermans
Lodgewood

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

I have a P/H Enfield Musketoon on the classifieds, if you're interested. It is the best repro I've seen. made from the original plans and dies in the Tower of London.


Check the Italian repros closely. some are great, some are not, but they're all fun to shoot!

Good luck in your search.

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

I believe Miroku is the name of that Japanese company... or at least I remember that they manufactured a Zouave replica at one time. I think they still make some of the muzzleloaders that are available at Dixie Gun Works.

Don't automatically exclude those Parker Hale replicas. If you are patient and visit enough gun shows you can still find them occasionally for reasonable prices. I recently saw a 2 band Parker Hale Enfield at a gun show sell for $400!!! It was like new. NO... you won't find them like that everyday, but it is still possible... I just can't say enough good things about the superb Parker Hales!

The Zoli manufactured Zouaves are supposedly some of the best guns made... though the Zouave is usually not a valid candidate for re-enactment. BUT since you're not worried about that aspect, I wouldn't sweat it. I've seen Zoli Zouaves sell for as little as $175 and that's for a very nice one too.

Also, you may come across a gun that was "used"--i.e. handled a lot by a re-enactor, but mechanically perfect. Some really good deals could be had that way. Those handling marks do not detract from function and if they bother you, you could always refinish the stock. That's where most of the cosmetic issues would be anyway.

I like the Enfield designs better as there is not as much drop in the stock. (they fit me better) Besides that the Enfields were used by both sides which tells you that they were high quality weapons. Most Springfield designs trace their stock design back to the old smoothbore muskets that have a lot more drop and can be uncomfortable for some shooters... but it's still a matter of personal preference.

If you want to hunt with it, a brightly finished Springfield wouldn't be the best choice for the woods. The 2 band Enfield and Zouave are about the same size gun (~33" barrels) and with a good Minie "could" drop any North American game animal.

There are a few "artillery carbines" that are even shorter and handier for the woods and hunting, though the recoil is much more noticeable. The "J.P. Murray Carbine", the "1861 Enfield Musketoon", "Cook and Bros. Carbine", which are all "about" the same weight and size. These are still heavy guns even with the shorter barrels (~24" or so), but are very handy for the closer brush and tree filled woods. Still in .58 caliber and plenty of punch!


Here is a fairly good place to start looking

http://colo1.midtnn.net/Catalog/catalog.htm

Some of these can be had for under $500 if you are a good shopper. Remember that the US Dollar is not doing very well against the EURO. The exchange rate is NOT in our favour! But don't forget about those possibilities of getting a "good used gun" either. At least you're putting money in the hands of another fellow American too.

It would also be a good idea to find a friend who owns one of these style guns OR go to one of the smaller re-enactments. Many of the participants are more than happy to let you handle the guns and give you advice and special tips/hints about choosing one for yourself.

Good Luck on your Quest!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[Tumblernotch]

Hey dc, WV Hillbilly brought up a point that goes along with what I said earlier. I had said that the Springfield pattern muskets are more comfortable for me and he said that Enfields are more comfortable for him. So, one thing you'll want to do is compare . Try the fit of both types. I can shoot either one comfortably, but I'm more happy with the Springfield/Richmond stock. I'm sure Hillbilly can shoot the Springfield well enough but he likes the Enfield more. See what fits you best. Also, the rear sights are just a little different, not much. If your eyes are aging, the sights on the 2 band Enfield are a little farther from the breech than on the muskets. That may help you a little. I actually need my rear sight a couple inches forward of the lower band but that wouldn't look right.

I've seen a lot of good advice on here. Go to the Nationals if you can and hit some reenactments too. The season is just starting and there will be a lot of them all over the East Coast as well as the Mid-West. Some of those makes you named are a little better than the others but not enough to hurt one way or the other. Actually, with the exception of early Parker-Hales and early EuroArms they're about alike. Also, down the road, you can always buy a match grade barrel from Dan Whitacre or Bob Hoyt or someone like that.
:imo: :results:

 

[dchawken]

Man, I love this board!. All great advice guys, I really appreciate it, esp. the heads up about the Nationals in Winchester. That's just an hour or so away, so you can bet I'll be there. The rec. re. drop/fit are particularly important to, as I'm 6'5", and I find it makes a difference in all kinds of ways. Besides, I'm tired of buying things sight-unseen via mail order. I was going to wait until the Spring National in Friendship, but hey, this is in my own backyard, and specific to the period.

As far as accuracy and performace goes, it sounds like what you're all saying is that while there are some exceptional model/manufacturer combinations out there, the majority of the guns out there are pretty good. It says a lot that no one warned against a specific make or model. I can't wait to start looking a few over.

Thanks again!

:thumbsup:

 

[11th corps]

I bought my Armi 1861 springfield musket repro from deer creek sutlers a year ago last January for about$450. It came with a sling and they threw in a canvas carry bag for it. I have a friend who is a re enactor and he tuned me into these folks. I also saw them at the Hartford City In. re enactment.
I really love shooting this musket. Its very accurate up to 100 yards or so.
Good luck.

 

[Rat]

Last year I picked up an ArmiSport 1861 and I've got to tell you I'm very pleased with it....UNDERSTATEMENT!

The general rumor I always heard was that the Armisport was not as "good" as the Euroarms, but I can find NOTHING wrong with mine. And I got it for $450, "pre-owned" but never fired/NIB. Mine also came with a sling. I got it at one of the online-arms/auction places...I forget which one now.

It is such an awesome rifle. Mine is very accurate, best group so far is 2.25" at 75 yards with 90 grains of Goex fffg, Wonderful Wad, and a Lee REAL bullet. (456 grains)

To me, but everyone's opinion is different, the 1861 really represents the civil war rifled-musket. I just love the look of the rifle, especially that 1861 hammer, the 1861 is just so cool-lookin'! I mean it's got "THE LOOK"...!!! It's got...."The Hammer". !!

I've also found that although it's a tad heavy, and long, it carries very well for hunting. I used it for two weeks last season, paked it all day many days dawn to dark and it was not tiring at all or uncomfortable. Great hunting rifle, great shooter, great looking rifle.

Good luck with whatever you wind up with, but you can guess what my vote is.

:hmm:

Rat

 

[Enfield1]

I bought a Euroarms .577 Enfield a few years back. I got a good deal from "The Regimental Quartermaster". They had a package deal with which you could get the rifle, a sling and the proper bayonet for under $500.00, but like I said, this was a few years back. I shoot it, clean it well and display on the wall in my office beneath the Georgia State Flag. My wife says that it is the most beautiful rifle that I own. She likes the European Walnut and the brass "furniture". Try "Fall Creek Sutlery" for prices. They were pretty reasonable the last time I checked.

 

[Rat]

I have to admit I had a hard time deciding between the Enfield and the Springfield. 'twas the hammer that finally tipped the balence, for me, but the Enfield was very tempting.

The Enfield definately has the better sights, but I turned the 200 yard (or was it 300?) flip-up leaf on the Springfield into a 100 yard peep. When it's folded down everything looks "stock" at first glance. But flip it up and I've got an accurate peep sight. For fast action in the brush I can just use the 100 yard V-notch. Have'nt decided what to do with the 500 yard leaf, but will most likely convert it to a 150 or 200 yard peep.

Works for me.

Rat

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Rat, I agree. I would be hard to improve on the fit and finish of my ArmiSport '42 musket. Everything is tightly inlet and polished perfectly. The bore is like a mirror. I have an old Parker Hale Enfield and I don't see much difference in fit between the two. I'm thinking about a '61 Springfield rifle-musket, and Armisport is the first maker I'll check out. Wouldn't mind one of their '42 rifled muskets either. Anyone shooting one of these?

 

[Tumblernotch]

I don't have a '42, but I sure would like to have one of those '42 Rifled Muskets! I have an old Ideal .69 cal. Minie mold that throws a 685 gr. bullet and I would like to try some of them in a .69 rifle. They don't work so good in a smoothbore.

My .58 riflemusket is a cherry stocked Richmond low hump that I had made by Blair Taylor back in the days when nobody made them commercially. It has a six groove match barrel breeched by Dan Whitacre. I lean toward the Springfield pattern guns for comfort in shooting, but there is certainly nothing wrong with the Enfields. The Enfields do have better sights. The 2 bander Enfield (1856 Sergeants Rifle) is easier for older eyes to aim because the rear sight is a little farther out on the barrel.
::

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I tend to like a lot of drop on my gunstocks, but I have no problems with my Enfield. 'Course, after thirty years I'm probably used to it. The '42 Springfield is a favorite of mine. I like it's looks and balance and it carries well on its sling.

An acquaintance of mine has an early ArmiSport 1842-the rifled version. He got a deer with it, a nice buck, and he said that big, slow moving Minie knocked the buck flat and it didn't get up. He claims three inch groups at 100 yards and I've no reason to doubt him. Makes one wonder at all this fuss about in-lines that move saboted pistol bullets at high velocities.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I've wondered about that myself. If I want to hunt with a jacketed bullet at high velocity, I'll go buy a 7mm Magnum. Around here the inlines only see the light of day during the extra week of deer season that they provide.

I know I'd hate to have that big glob of lead hit me no matter how fast or slow it was going! And I'm not surprized that it flattened that buck. I hit one at 105 yds. with a 500 gr. .58 Minie and spun it like a top before it slapped the ground.
:front:

 

[Rat]

I think that minnie rifles are capable of 3" groups, but it can be a hard road to get there, and I'm not sure if the traditional hollow base minnies are the way to do it, unless they are very close to bore diameter. The muskets need to be bedded well also...something often overlooked with muzzle-loaders in general.

However, 6" at 100 is easy to obtain, and that's a rifle that will kill any game at that range, and a bit further, everytime, if the shooter don't screw up. In fact, I'm not sure how the man with the 1" rifle will take more game than the man (or woman, girl, girly-man, shim or it) with the 6" rifle, if they are both equally good shots.

Rat

 

[microbe1]

HI, Parker Hale Enfields were rather inexpensive when I started into the sport...
I confess that the nicest Springfield 1860-something I ever saw for $300...was a Japanese one.. beautiful timber, flawless lock and[url] barrel..made[/url] by Miroku..same as my DGW Tenn Flinter(fantastic rifle for the $) ...they make A Grade smokeless shotguns for competition...I think they are grossly undervalued on the 2nd hand market which is good for blokes like us!!
See ya, Al
PS. To be honest.. I like the quality of manufacture... best cars I've owned were Japanese for reliability...ok..my best rifles are US made..although... my Japanese one's kill game just as dead and accurately for half the price??? The wood just isn't as nice. Who do you think make the Wetherby Vanguard range? Japanese Howa... I have one of them too! :yakyak: :m2c: