Damaged 1860 barrel

[45D]

I have two ASM open tops, one brass one steel. I now understand the function of the wedge just not how to correct things if worn or made wrong. A spacer in the well to ensure the wedge makes things tight??

Yessir.

Mike

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

What an idiot.

I’ve got a similar situation with a used Pietta Smith carbine where the previous retard must have had a fit of conniptions when using a steel punch to drive out the rear sight, pockmarking the entire flat below the dovetail.

Luckily, your damage is an easier fix.

I’d gently dress the edges of the barrel with a fine file and finish with emory, and cold blue.

For the crown, you can easily redo it yourself with valve lapping compound and a pure brass screw chucked up in a power drill. Videos online how to do it. 15 minute job.

 

[M. De Land]

The reason for the arbor to be held with tension against the barrel assy. is for the transmission of harmonics. Their world was of mechanics and they well understood the importance of unwanted vibration and its destructive force ( hello). This is what allows the 2 assys to act and respond as a single unit. Now you should be able to understand how the assemblies held loosely together beat themselves up as apposed to working together. Auto mechanics understand, engine builders/ designers . .
Those folks of the 19th century understood mechanics quite well.

Mike

If the wedge width , thickness and hardness are correct and it fits all slots correctly there will be no movement you can feel fore and aft . There will still be the flexing under load at firing however. There is no more tendency to batter itself loose than if the arbor where hard fit to the end, again because the pressure is in the opposite direction thus unloading the arbor end fit. Also when you use the loading lever instead of a stand to seat the ball you tighten all the joints in the same direction as when firing.
Harmonics are related to long barrel oscillation as the bore moves off central axis in a helix wave commonly called barrel whip . In an open frame gun with an 8 inch barrel and all the joints it is built of it plays no appreciable part in accuracy potential, in my opinion. An end fit arbor is not going to stop any more joint flex upon firing than if it wasn't as the load pressure in all seats is in the opposite direction.
Again, if one feels better about end fitting an arbor I can see no harm at all but to say an open frame gun cannot preform to it's full potential without it I believe is untrue. One thing I don't care for is drilling and tapping an adjustment screw in the end of the arbor thus weakening the the important strength in the arbor slot end.
One mans opinion and the reasoning for it.

 

[45D]

Another "see in your mind" part of the setup is the wedge being "driven" in with "purpose"!! Lots of folks will tell you they just use their thumb to press the wedge in. That's not "DRIVING" it in!! Likewise, it's not imparting the force needed to remove the slop (otherwise you couldn't put it together) and allow tollerances to be reached. Just as in a test I conducted last year in another forum. One of my own Dragoons with a .002" endshake or bbl /cyl clearance was taken down (barrel off) and then reinstalled using thumb pressure on the wedge (I cheated a little and smacked it with the heal of my hand!!). The endshake measured basically .004" or .005" . . . driving it on in gave me the .002" I'd set it up for. You're not strong enough to "press" the wedge in to do its intended job.

Mike

 

[45D]

If the wedge width , thickness and hardness are correct and it fits all slots correctly there will be no movement you can feel fore and aft . There will still be the flexing under load at firing however. There is no more tendency to batter itself loose than if the arbor where hard fit to the end, again because the pressure is in the opposite direction thus unloading the arbor end fit. Also when you use the loading lever instead of a stand to seat the ball you tighten all the joints in the same direction as when firing.
Harmonics are related to long barrel oscillation as the bore moves off central axis in a helix wave commonly called barrel whip . In an open frame gun with an 8 inch barrel and all the joints it is built of it plays no appreciable part in accuracy potential, in my opinion. An end fit arbor is not going to stop any more joint flex upon firing than if it wasn't as the load pressure in all seats is in the opposite direction.
Again, if one feels better about end fitting an arbor I can see no harm at all but to say an open frame gun cannot preform to it's full potential without it I believe is untrue. One thing I don't care for is drilling and tapping an adjustment screw in the end of the arbor thus weakening the the important strength in the arbor slot end.
One mans opinion and the reasoning for it.

Not talking about barrel harmonics for accuracy. Each assy has its own harmonic value and if forced together under enough tension they will have an equal value and vibration will be the same throughout the assemblage.
As far as the drilling and tapping of the end of the arbor, by your statement I get the idea that you don't understand the purpose of it being done. Maybe you can explain with a little more detail and I'll clear it up for you.

Mike

 

[SPQR70AD]

This is how "equine fertilizer" gets spread and ignorance abounds!!
Springfield Art doesn't "get the arbor thing " so it's apparently not a problem . . . but he has Piettas , which if they are of recent make, doesn't have short arbors!!!
Then he's told there's no problem as long as the barrel and cylinder and wedge "fit"! THEY DON'T!!! The wedge isn't a BARREL ADJUSTER!!!! The ARBOR is the "limiting factor" as to how far the wedge can influence the further encroachment of the barrel!!! That's what makes the endshake (barrel/cylinder clearance) a repeatable, known number instead of a "moving target" or guessing game!! It's the only way to have the exact same revolver every time you reassemble it!!
If the wedge isn't installed with good force, it can/ will move even shot to shot especially when shooting max loads in Belt and Horse pistols.
Smokeless rounds are brutal in converted open top revolvers and they will "self-destruct" the wedge, break the arbor (in time) and mutilate the wedge slot in the barrel UNLESS, the arbor is correct!!

You don't have to correct the arbor in those that need it ( which is all but the originals and Piettas of the last dozen yrs) but if you care so much about your reproduction being so "close to the originals " youd be even closer if it actually FUNCTIONED as designed!!

You can shoot any gun that isn't perfect but it's more fun to shoot one that is . . .

Mike

Colt was the first to come out with a revolver but the design with the wedge is horrible. an 1858 remmy is light years ahead. many guys dont like to hear that cause they can get a Colt and make like they are Wild Bill Hickok or maybe Gen Lee

 

[Bad Karma]

Another "see in your mind" part of the setup is the wedge being "driven" in with "purpose"!! Lots of folks will tell you they just use their thumb to press the wedge in. That's not "DRIVING" it in!! Likewise, it's not imparting the force needed to remove the slop (otherwise you couldn't put it together) and allow tollerances to be reached. Just as in a test I conducted last year in another forum. One of my own Dragoons with a .002" endshake or bbl /cyl clearance was taken down (barrel off) and then reinstalled using thumb pressure on the wedge (I cheated a little and smacked it with the heal of my hand!!). The endshake measured basically .004" or .005" . . . driving it on in gave me the .002" I'd set it up for. You're not strong enough to "press" the wedge in to do its intended job.

Mike

Not talking about barrel harmonics for accuracy. Each assy has its own harmonic value and if forced together under enough tension they will have an equal value and vibration will be the same throughout the assemblage.
As far as the drilling and tapping of the end of the arbor, by your statement I get the idea that you don't understand the purpose of it being done. Maybe you can explain with a little more detail and I'll clear it up for you.

Mike

Colt was the first to come out with a revolver but the design with the wedge is horrible. an 1858 remmy is light years ahead. many guys dont like to hear that cause they can get a Colt and make like they are Wild Bill Hickok or maybe Gen Lee

 

[M. De Land]

Not talking about barrel harmonics for accuracy. Each assy has its own harmonic value and if forced together under enough tension they will have an equal value and vibration will be the same throughout the assemblage.
As far as the drilling and tapping of the end of the arbor, by your statement I get the idea that you don't understand the purpose of it being done. Maybe you can explain with a little more detail and I'll clear it up for you.

Mike

Well Mike wither it's used to fit the arbor to the end or adjust wedge fit it's still a bad idea to remover metal from the end of the arbor ahead of the slot which is fairly thin in some of them any way.
I have enjoyed the conversation and like to test others thinking against my own ideas. It doesn't matter that we don't agree on this particular aspect of revolver tuning but lets just keep it civil and interesting to think and talk about.

 

[45D]

Not meaning necessarily to put anyone on the spot, I will go ahead and spill the beans. Drilling and tapping the end of the arbor and using a screw in device ( a stud, button, set screw . . . ) as a means to extend the arbor length to meet the bottom of the arbor hole is (to me) not the best way to solve the problem. The arbor itself is reduced to the "shaft size" of the device used. Instead, I use a single s.s. spacer mounted in the hole to "shorten" the hole ( bring the bottom up) and meet the existing arbor.
I STILL drill and tap the arbor all the way into the wedge slot ( 1/4" X 28 for belt and horse pistols. #6 X 32 for pockets) to install a set screw that has a polished and flat surface to bear against the wedge. It is an ADJUSTABLE WEDGE BEARING. It will allow you to adjust for any future wear of the wedge ( installing/ removing) or if you'd rather the wedge be less prominent ( impeding reholstering) you can install it deeper and " customize" the fitment. The diameter of the arbor is more than substantial enough for this install asyou can see in the photo.

⁸

So, the strength of the arbor is substantial and with full contact with the barrel assy, harmonics ( vibration) transfer is easy. Walkers can shoot 60 gr. charges of trip 7 powder as a sustained diet with no problem.

This is what happens when there is space between the arbor and the end of the arbor hole shooting max 777 charges.

So, fix your short arbors!!!!

Mike

 

[45D]

Well Mike wither it's used to fit the arbor to the end or adjust wedge fit it's still a bad idea to remover metal from the end of the arbor ahead of the slot which is fairly thin in some of them any way.
I have enjoyed the conversation and like to test others thinking against my own ideas. It doesn't matter that we don't agree on this particular aspect of revolver tuning but lets just keep it civil and interesting to think and talk about.

That's fine and I saw your post after posting mine. I'll just say my setup has worked for 100's of revolvers, won many state championships and competitions over 8 yrs. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with me but when asked about or told what I do isn't correct or a good idea, I've got some degree of proof . . . and not just open tops, that goes for Remingtons and ROA's as well.

I'd always rather be friends than enemies.

Mike

 

[springfield art]

This is how "equine fertilizer" gets spread and ignorance abounds!!
Springfield Art doesn't "get the arbor thing " so it's apparently not a problem . . . but he has Piettas , which if they are of recent make, doesn't have short arbors!!!
Then he's told there's no problem as long as the barrel and cylinder and wedge "fit"! THEY DON'T!!! The wedge isn't a BARREL ADJUSTER!!!! The ARBOR is the "limiting factor" as to how far the wedge can influence the further encroachment of the barrel!!! That's what makes the endshake (barrel/cylinder clearance) a repeatable, known number instead of a "moving target" or guessing game!! It's the only way to have the exact same revolver every time you reassemble it!!
If the wedge isn't installed with good force, it can/ will move even shot to shot especially when shooting max loads in Belt and Horse pistols.
Smokeless rounds are brutal in converted open top revolvers and they will "self-destruct" the wedge, break the arbor (in time) and mutilate the wedge slot in the barrel UNLESS, the arbor is correct!!

You don't have to correct the arbor in those that need it ( which is all but the originals and Piettas of the last dozen yrs) but if you care so much about your reproduction being so "close to the originals " youd be even closer if it actually FUNCTIONED as designed!!

You can shoot any gun that isn't perfect but it's more fun to shoot one that is . . .

Mike

Yes, I would never shoot an open top with conversions. Thanks, some guys really know their stuff.

 

[springfield art]

Not meaning necessarily to put anyone on the spot, I will go ahead and spill the beans. Drilling and tapping the end of the arbor and using a screw in device ( a stud, button, set screw . . . ) as a means to extend the arbor length to meet the bottom of the arbor hole is (to me) not the best way to solve the problem. The arbor itself is reduced to the "shaft size" of the device used. Instead, I use a single s.s. spacer mounted in the hole to "shorten" the hole ( bring the bottom up) and meet the existing arbor.
I STILL drill and tap the arbor all the way into the wedge slot ( 1/4" X 28 for belt and horse pistols. #6 X 32 for pockets) to install a set screw that has a polished and flat surface to bear against the wedge. It is an ADJUSTABLE WEDGE BEARING. It will allow you to adjust for any future wear of the wedge ( installing/ removing) or if you'd rather the wedge be less prominent ( impeding reholstering) you can install it deeper and " customize" the fitment. The diameter of the arbor is more than substantial enough for this install asyou can see in the photo. View attachment 133380⁸

So, the strength of the arbor is substantial and with full contact with the barrel assy, harmonics ( vibration) transfer is easy. Walkers can shoot 60 gr. charges of trip 7 powder as a sustained diet with no problem.

This is what happens when there is space between the arbor and the end of the arbor hole shooting max 777 charges.

View attachment 133382

So, fix your short arbors!!!!

Mike

I have great respect for guys that do this type of machining work! I don't have the patience to learn it! Very interesting to know about such technical issues. Good luck to all.

 

[SPQR70AD]

View attachment 133352

do you think you are hickok or lee?

 

[M. De Land]

Not meaning necessarily to put anyone on the spot, I will go ahead and spill the beans. Drilling and tapping the end of the arbor and using a screw in device ( a stud, button, set screw . . . ) as a means to extend the arbor length to meet the bottom of the arbor hole is (to me) not the best way to solve the problem. The arbor itself is reduced to the "shaft size" of the device used. Instead, I use a single s.s. spacer mounted in the hole to "shorten" the hole ( bring the bottom up) and meet the existing arbor.
I STILL drill and tap the arbor all the way into the wedge slot ( 1/4" X 28 for belt and horse pistols. #6 X 32 for pockets) to install a set screw that has a polished and flat surface to bear against the wedge. It is an ADJUSTABLE WEDGE BEARING. It will allow you to adjust for any future wear of the wedge ( installing/ removing) or if you'd rather the wedge be less prominent ( impeding reholstering) you can install it deeper and " customize" the fitment. The diameter of the arbor is more than substantial enough for this install asyou can see in the photo. View attachment 133380⁸

So, the strength of the arbor is substantial and with full contact with the barrel assy, harmonics ( vibration) transfer is easy. Walkers can shoot 60 gr. charges of trip 7 powder as a sustained diet with no problem.

This is what happens when there is space between the arbor and the end of the arbor hole shooting max 777 charges.

View attachment 133382

So, fix your short arbors!!!!

Mike

I have to admit I have never seen an arbor broken off like that before, but I have to wonder if end fit would have changed any thing . My thought was more likely an ill fitting key having a run at the end of the arbor slot. The ball hitting the forcing cone is what is moving the barrel group away from the end of the arbor. What does it matter if it's end is making contact with a mass moving in the opposite direction.

 

[45D]

I have to admit I have never seen an arbor broken off like that before, but I have to wonder if end fit would have changed any thing . My thought was more likely an ill fitting key having a run at the end of the arbor slot. The ball hitting the forcing cone is what is moving the barrel group away from the end of the arbor. What does it matter if it's end is making contact with a mass moving in the opposite direction.

I'll just say, if it can't move forward ( has no room) it won't . . .
If it has no reason to ( Harmonics), it won't.

Mike

 

[11Bravo]

45D, I understand the short arbor discussion in the reproduction pistols. But have you ever come across that problem in an original Colt? I'm only curious how good was the quality control back then, in a total numbers matching pistol.

 

[45D]

Of the 3 originals I've had the pleasure to work on / "pilfer through", they had mediocre machining but definitely an arbor that fit. That tells me the most important things have to be done and as long as the functionality is there, it'll work as intended. That's why I think todays " copies " are actually better than the originals !! The Uberti is closest having all 3 platforms and has action parts that Sam Colt would have had a fit over!! Pietta fixed the arbor situation but is stuck in the 70's with the action parts!! So, you get what you get, each comes with their problems . . . but they can be easily delt with.

Mike

 

[11Bravo]

Thank you Mike. The reason I asked is I have a few originals in great condition and may give them a go. But that makes for another question, in the collection is a Colt conversion I believe is called a 1862 pocket to .38 RF. The funny part is it's serial # 220 except for the arbor and the loading gate. Those are stamped 243 so my guess that pistol was put together after a liquid lunch. So my question is, was each arbor custom fitted at the factory or were they all interchangeable?

 

[45D]

If it has a conversion ring, it is held in place by the arbor so obviously the loading gate would be new and likewise so would the arbor. That would be why there's a difference in the numbers. Can you post a pic? Sounds nice!!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Here a

I have to admit I have never seen an arbor broken off like that before, but I have to wonder if end fit would have changed any thing . My thought was more likely an ill fitting key having a run at the end of the arbor slot. The ball hitting the forcing cone is what is moving the barrel group away from the end of the arbor. What does it matter if it's end is making contact with a mass moving in the opposite direction.

Here are a couple of examples of fairly thin arbor slot ends I would not tap into. Click on picture to enlarge.