Dangerous Custom Build

[Ken Cormier]

Well all the p/c answers are a great place to start working on to get thing correctly done to get this resolved is fine.

But in my world that would be an asulat on my FAMILY And I would use the barrels in question to beat him with. I have lived a life where phsycial violnce is no stranger good or bad just the way it is and I don't care wether it is accepital or not.

 

[Barb Wahr]

In reviewing the original post, there was no request for compensation. It was clearly indicated that the information was posted for SAFETY reasons.Isn't the first priority of shooting safety? Remember the Ford Pinto? Some people experienced problems with them. Some,not all. But it DID happen.I have handled both "Pinto" rifles.

I was present at the range the day the "Pinto" you produced failed. I was the shooter seated between the two brothers. The vent liner passed close to my head also. Being a lady,I think the brothers have been complete gentlemen.The incident DID happen just as they described it. NOTHING was embelished or exaggerated.And, it was VERY scary to think what could have happened to one or both of us. FYI: I was present at the uncrating of the "Pintos" and THAT happened as described. In my opinion, you sir, are no gentleman. At no time did you ever own up to the possibility that this could be YOUR fault-you just "noted the buyers disappointment". How cold is that?

 

[jtmattison]

I'm not replying to anyone in particular.

No doubt this is a very unfortunate situation.

In my opinion it has elevated far beyond a simple dispute between buyer and builder. It seems like someone is trying to form a lynch mob.

Nobody is perfect. We all make mistakes. I think this could have been resolved long ago and never needed to be brought to a public forum.

The buyer has nothing to lose here. The builder has his livelihood at stake.

Is this public lashing really necessary? Is it really a service to the people to bring this one incident up for the world to see?

Seriously folks. Step back and look at the big picture here.

:nono:

HD

 

[Shine]

It should have been resolved a week after the guns were recieved. Something is wicked funny here.

 

[nit wit]

Apparenttly vent liners can fail. The Ancient Ones had a competitor have his drum and nipple blow out and cut another shooters arm. There was no fist fight and no one got sued.
Stop crying about SAFETY,manure happens when you shoot black powder. If you can't handle that stay in your rockin chair.I still say get a new liner and a new barrel.
Nit Wit

 

[Flintfan69]

It was clearly indicated that the information was posted for SAFETY reasons.

Then why did the "gentlemen" go on at length about how the guns were not identical, and spend considerable time describing how the craftsmanship was not up to their standards. Somethings smells incredibly fishy here.

It seems that the buyers are possibly upset that they did not immediately send the guns back for a full refund, which is exactly what they should have been done. And after months of stewing over their bad decision are now trying to harm the lively hood of a gunmaker.

The "gentleman" alone made the decision to keep the guns that were not up to their standards, now they need to live with that choice. If I were the gunmaker, I would revisit that option even after all this time and refund the guns (only when the guns are returned) to put this ugly scene behind and move on.

 

[nmdd]

When I read so called facts in this forum I generally look at the person's profile that is stating the so called facts. IMHO it is easy to flame someone while remaining anonymous. If you want me to believe you, man up...tell me your name and where you are from, other wise I will just mark off what you say as BS....your mileage may vary.....Alvin....

 

[gizamo]

What type of vent liner is "non-removable" ? Was it filed flush?

I pull all of mine once a year to inspect and clean. Then I use a bit of neverseize, and re install...

 

[tiger13]

The barrel looks to me, in my opinion only, that the gun was shot, and then NOT cleaned. By looking at the amount of rust on the cleaning patches they look just like when you acquire a gun that has been neglected, and attempt to clean it up. The guns would have had 2 months to get in this condition. I cannot for any reason, think of why anyone would want to keep such a gun if the barrel were in this condition!? anyone having paid good money would send it back without any hesitation. I PERSONALLY, would not even want to attempt to shoot any gun I bought AS NEW, with a barrel in this condition, I want to keep my face where it is without any changes thank you.
The whole situation just has a reek about it, and I am leaning heavily towards the builder's side on this. Just my opinion.

 

[Fred_Dwyer]

Maybe we can blow up this thread?

It is becoming clearer that it is simply a hatchet job.

You had an "unserviceable" gun and did not return it? No reasonable person would do that.

Barb signs up July 22 and only posts today? was that to make sure the stories are in sync?

You send the barrel off to a 3rd party rather than the maker of the gun? Somehow the 3rd party can tell it was browning solution; but you showed cleaning patches where you cleaned the bore, how did any traces of browning solution survive? Did Getz send some sample out for some gas chromatography to verify that it is browning solution?

One thing you accomplished is my new gun WON'T get a Getz barrel. HAHA

If I understand the story right the builder says, "My daughter has died, I won't be able to finish your guns." You say, "I don't care if your daughter died, I WANT MY GUNS."

It is very clear you are not a happy man.

 

[Shine]

This is what i get.
Now see one Brother decides to surprise second Brother with a fine muzzle loader.. He orders it in '07 and finally receives it in '11.. Granted they are not what he ordered, but he makes a big deal about the gift to his brother (who had no idea) and although disappointed his Brothers gun seems fine except for looks of it. Now the bad barrel gun is another issue. Would you really want to send a barrel back to the guy that had it for 4 or 5 years? I would think it starts to be a trust thing. Or would you send it to the people who made the barrel to see what can be done? Now back to the second rifle. How do you take back a surprise gift from your brother? I tried to take a twinkie from my brother once and he bit me. Their only true reason to post this topic is that both of these guns ended up having safety issues.. Sure they were not happy with the over all fit and finish, but they didn't post it until the second gun's liner failed. Whick was probably the last straw.

 

[GANGGREEN]

In fairness Fred, I think the buyer suggested that the builder should take his time with the build and that he'd still be waiting, even if it took a while. I think there's absolutely something rotten in Denmark with this whole story but I think the man was pretty fair about the builder's personal trageda and was patient about the guns being completed.

 

[123.DieselBenz]

I find this strange, odd, funny, unusual ... Since this whole thread is about SAFETY ...

We were standing on the firing line. My brother was to my left, twenty feet away from me. I watched as he touched off his shot. The sound was odd and the recoil twisted and rolled into his chest and face. He reloaded for another shot and stepped to the line to fire. Nothing happened. He inspected the rifle and found the vent liner had blown out. We looked for the liner thinking it had just fallen out of the barrel. My nephew who was there with us found the vent liner very far away from where my brother stood to shoot

Don't you look at the pan/vent when you prime the pan? Pick the vent?

 

[smoothy]

It is hard reading from a forum and know what is fact and what is not. A lot of opinions have been formed on these unknowns. And others have also pointed this out. Not saying anyone is a liar. But I tried putting myself in both party's shoes.

If I was the buyer and dissatisfied with the end result the guns would have been sent back. I'd be very upset, but using this forum would not have been my avenue to vent. I probably would not have even received the rifle if the builder told me his tragedy and that he wasn't up for it. (This personal tragedy is the only issue I accept as fact, it's just too serious.)

If I was the seller I don't know if I could do much more in offering to buy the guns back. If the guns were in such "unsafe" condition I would not want the buyer to have them in his possession. I'd feel very humbled by the experience, whether I felt it was mostly my mistakes or not. Then I'd take even more care with future customers in communications. And it would take a time for me to get over man's inperfections (mine and others) and go on doing what I like to do.

There are not very many laws governing the sale of muzzleloaders. I hope there never will be as we have too much government now that is out of the common man's hands. We have only ourselves as individuals in these transactions. A gentlman's handshake, even if over the phone or internet. Not having the advantage to meet face to face between seller and buyer. Being able to form a trust and understanding. It just can't be done as easily with typewritten words and pictures.

 

[Dphar]

What type of vent liner is "non-removable" ? I pull all of mine once a year to inspect and clean. Then I use a bit of neverseize, and re install...

What kind of liner is non-removable?
The GOOD ONES. They require an easy out and destruction of the liner to remove.

This is an original Manton shotgun with platinum lined vents.

They are not removable.
If properly installed there is never a reason to remove one unless its been enlarged by erosion or operator error.
Removable liners are far more likely to "come adrift" in one way or another than a properly installed liner that cannot be removed.



To get back to the original posters problem.
Almost anyone can screw parts together to assemble a ML. This does not mean that there is any depth of knowledge or skill or ethics involved.
Ordering a rifle from someone who is unknown to the client requires due diligence on the part of the client.
So... Any fool can assemble a ML (and many do) and it will go "bang". Then he can claim to be a "custom maker" and put an ad in some magazine. This is not an indication of anything other than it will go "bang" at some point during the firing cycle. Whether all the parts will stay in place is another matter...
Sadly most ML shooters don't know a good ML from a bad one and will not even listen if someone tries to educate them since the good guns "cost too much".
Dan

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Shine,
You seem to be one of the very few who has read the information and understood it. :hatsoff:

 

[Fred_Dwyer]

I think there's absolutely something rotten in Denmark with this whole story

We are in agreement there.
I'm not inclined to sort out any more than that.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 

[Rifleman1776]

Bad merchandise is a legal issue. Really, this is not about muzzle loading rifles. It is about an improperly fulfilled contract.
The buyers made the mistake(s) of not complaining and returning the merchandis immediately. They never should have tried shooting either.
We are interested in the guns and the builder. But it really is only a legal matter.

 

In reviewing the original post, there was no request for compensation. It was clearly indicated that the information was posted for SAFETY reasons.Isn't the first priority of shooting safety? Remember the Ford Pinto? Some people experienced problems with them. Some,not all. But it DID happen.I have handled both "Pinto" rifles.

I was present at the range the day the "Pinto" you produced failed.

Ah, your first post. So now we have people joining the forum just to take sides in this? :shake:

 

[hoochiepapa]

True but the product should have never left the shop concidering the gross nature of the problems, ...

May I point out that no one on this forum knows what condition anything was in at any time, except the buyer and seller.

For people here to take sides, based on what they think happened is not only not fair to either side, it is a waste of everyone's time.

To address the original poster, I would say, if you were not satisfied with the product, you should have returned it. You chose to keep it, so you made your choice. Man up and live with your decision.

For the first time in the history of the world, I agree with Jack Wilson. If you were not happy with the guns right out of the box, you should have sent them back.