Dead clean.....then.....funny brown...

[Ice Tigre]

Good afternoon,
OK,

when I went shooting wednesday, I wet/dry swabed every 2 shots after the first 5 or so. when I was done,15-20 shots, I wet swabbed 4 or 5 times and as many dry. The last one was just slightly grey. The gun was left overnight, when I cleaned it thursday, I went until the patches came out white, and called it clean. 1 olive oil soaked patch,and a dry patch to lube.

Friday I ran a dry patch, to remove the oil before dropping my new bore light in to look at the bore. I got a dark brown patch But it doesn't look like rust, I've had to deal with rust in other guns and this is different. A couple wet patches and a few dry ones and it goes away. but the next wet patch and it comes back slightly. :hmm:

When I quite useing Bore butter, it was because I had a slight brown residue while cleaning, or when running a patch before the first shot to remove excess oil. I had seen some bore butter left on a patch for a couple days after swabbing with it, and it had turned dark brown. But I have shot and cleaned the gun twice since I quite useing it. This was just the first time I had swabed just a day after cleaning. The bore is realy shinny using the light. :hmm:

Any ideas? Is it just left over bore butter residue, the "seasoning" comming out? Forget it or not?

I use olive oil for a rust preventative, as I've read that its one of the best. I am useing sagebrush citrus solvent to swab/clean, would hate for it to be the culprit, as it works great for the powder fouling. I switched from bore butter to moose snot fo patch lube. I'm trying to stay away from petrolium products. I use pyrodex 2F. been going to switch to 3F, soposed to burn cleaner, but I don't thing this is a powder fouling issue.??

any help is greatly apreciated! :bow:

Gary

 

[BS]

Just sounds like you didn't get the bore clean.

Read this:

Link to cleaning a muzzleloader

 

[roundball]

It's sometimes hard to draw conclusions from the way a photo appears that someone else has taken...but looking at those photos and assuming they are an accurate representation of color, they look just like rust to me.

And FWIW, I've used bore butter in all my rifles for over 15 years without any problems.

Also FWIW, and remember that you're asking so don't get annoyed if this is not the case...but it cannot be emphasized strongly enough that the three steps of cleaning, drying, lubing the entire surface of a bore have to be done to the absolute 100% level...if any one of those steps falls short of 100% there will be rust.

 

[Ice Tigre]

Well, I'm perfectly open to the idea of it being rust, but I've never had it look like that. I'm also open to the fact that I might not have got it 100% clean. but if I scrub and scrub for an hour until I get clean wet patches and clean dry patches....I'm asuming its clean.

But at this point I just don't know what to think.

the color of the first pic is perfect, the second is a bit yellower than its soposed to be.

Gary

 

[bpbrs]

I use olive oil for a rust preventative, as I've read that its one of the best.

Sounds like you heard wrong :nono:

Olive oil is good for cooking, as a patch lube and having young madiens rub on your body with herbs and spices.

Lubricants:
Olive oil in not a preservative for firearms.
Which includes any of the "FANTASTIC" claims from the rest of the patch/bullet lubricants.

Preservatives:
CRC, Sheath,synthetic oil and petrol based oils are fine as well. Some are better specifically designed as protective coatings.

Regards,
BPB

 

[davy]

Davy

 

[gmww]

If your using olive oil to be period correct then ignore the rest of this post. If not then...As far as rust prevention, WD40 has tested to do a very good job. I posted a link a couple of months ago to the Brownell's site on the different rust prevention product out there. They did a pretty good test with photos to show the results. I'll see if I can find it and repost here.

Rust prevention test

 

[roundball]

Well, I'm perfectly open to the idea of it being rust, but I've never had it look like that. I'm also open to the fact that I might not have got it 100% clean. but if I scrub and scrub for an hour until I get clean wet patches and clean dry patches....I'm asuming its clean.

But at this point I just don't know what to think.

the color of the first pic is perfect, the second is a bit yellower than its soposed to be.

Gary

Gary, one of the most misleading things about cleaning a muzzleloader is the "clean white patch"...unfortunately, a clean white patch doesn't always mean a pure clean bore.

I found that I could clean a bore with patches till my arms hurt and the patches looked clean & white...but as soon as I ran a good bronze bore brush up and down the bore a couple dozen strokes, the patches would come out almost black from all the crud that the brush loosened up...the crud lays in the sharp 90* corners of the lands/grooves and you can't see it with a bore light.

It might be worth a hour to set up a bucket of steaming hot soapy water and go after it with a good bore brush...get it back to the pure raw metal condition, then every time you clean it after that, always include a couple dozen brush strokes to avoid any buildup at all.

Almost have to be fanatical about cleaning, and getting the bore of a muzzleloader bone dry...if not, putting the best lube in the world over the top of a bore that may still have a little crud, or still have a little dampness in it won't help...the rust starts underneath the lube.

Only when I can brush scrub a bore real good and then have the patches still come out clean & white do I feel that the bore is 100% clean.

:thumbsup:

 

[gmww]

I was speed reading and missed the Pyrodex part. I use the stuff only cause it's cheap to shoot around my part of the country. However, it seems to be corrosive IMHO. More so than good old black. I find I have to really clean my barrel more than I would have for BP.

 

[musketman]

I would say that is flash rust you are seeing...

Here is an old thread reguarding this...
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/30947/post/30947/hl[/url]//

 

[buckknife]

That sure looks like rust to me.I went to olive oil about a month ago or so.Heres the way i use it.First i flush the barrel with cold water then i used murphys oil soap just maybe a ounce or less in a plastic coffie pot full of cold tap water from the well.I use a bore mop and sucked the soapy water back and forth threw the barrel for around 5 to 10 minutes till i was sure the soap had broke down the fouling with the olive oil in it.Then i flushed it again with cold water to remove the soap.dry patch complely dry and then i put a sloppy wet patch with extra virgin olive oil down the bore back and forth several times till im sure every thing is coated good.
Have 5 guns with olive oil in them and they will not pull a speck of brown.
The first time i tried it i didnt use soap in the water and the next day i had brown on the patch.The olive oil didnt break down enough for me using just water leaving fouling in the bore someware i guess.If i use the murphys oil soap it breaks the fouling mixed with olive oil down fairly easy and the bore mop stays clean as well.
I always run the mop under water to get the soap off it and then use a rag or towel to get excesive moister off it before i put it away.For some reason i got the idea that if i run the mop down the bore instead of patch to dry clean i could use less patches,it worked.Id just use a rag to get the mositure off the mop by squeezen it and run it down and squeeze it again.Did that several times and then i used dry patches,used a lot less patches then i usally would.Olive oil works as well as any petro product ive used to protect the bores of my muzzleloaders so far.

 

[Ice Tigre]

OK, so its rust. everybody has a right to be wrong once in a while.(my track record for this is terrible.. :redface: :haha: )

I had not been useing the brush, why I don't know..I brush every other gun I use. I have never used water to clean with, for fear of getting rust :winking: . I'll try it tomorrow with the oil soap since I have it, and dry the bore imedietely.

a misleading white patch...never would have thunk it... :shocked2:

Hot or cold water?

I think I have probably had the rust for a bit, since I was useing tc13 cleaner, and have read (that thread that musketman linked too,among others) that people have had rust problems after it. At any rate, now that I think about it, I probably haven't got the bore completely dry at some point....maybe trapped moisture in the bore.


Just for the record, I don't use the olive oil to be historicaly acurate, I just like the idea of useing a natual product. I don't particularly like petro products for anything. and somewhere here on the forum somebody did a test...ummm...
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/18363/tp/2/[/url]
but I remember olive oil doing better... :hmm:

I use pyrodex because we have 2 cans of it and its cheaper. Also the only blace to get BP localy is a guy who is out of town when ever I try to contact him. :haha: will try BP when I can get it.

I think I now know where my problem lies.

thanks guys, I'll be back when I think of something else tommorow

Gary

 

[Ice Tigre]

GMWW; I didn't know brownells had articles!
now i have another place to read! :hatsoff:

wonderful article :thumbsup: . I will be trying some different things, on some of my guns, in the future.


Gary

 

[gmww]

I didn't know either. :rotf: Someone else posted it on another forum. It was so good I wanted to share it here.

Watch the Pyrodex it appears to be more corrosive. I've had the same problem. As a matter of fact, I'm going to grab a couple of guns and run patches down to make sure they are still ok.

:thumbsup:

GMWW

 

[CoyoteJoe]

While I do understand your desire to use natural products, I'd suggest you attend a gun show and take a look at all the old gun bores. It's very, very rare to find a 200 year old gun with a decent bore, even though they may look well cared for on the outside.
Vegetable oils, whether olive oil or the vegetable oils in various "wonder concoctions" are not much for rust prevention and are not a moisture displacement at all. If there is any moisture in the pores of the metal, running vegetable oil over it won't do. That is one area where I join the 21st century.

 

[Ice Tigre]

Well, there aren't any gun shows here. no knife shows either :cursing: . What they do call a gun show is all the dealers in the area getting together for a sale.Nothing is more than 10 to 15 years old. Usualy in perfect condition and over priced. :shake:

I won't use the petro products out of personal preference, I'll find something that works. if I don't I will probably change my preference. :winking:

Olive oil is what I use on the knives I make, and I've never had one rust. In 2 years of making,that is. It should work just as good for this.

I think so far my problem is not getting the bore dry before lube/rust preventitive aplication. I need to make sure that its clean and perfectly dry.

anywho.


Gary

 

[leadball]

While I do understand your desire to use natural products, I'd suggest you attend a gun show and take a look at all the old gun bores. It's very, very rare to find a 200 year old gun with a decent bore, even though they may look well cared for on the outside.
Vegetable oils, whether olive oil or the vegetable oils in various "wonder concoctions" are not much for rust prevention and are not a moisture displacement at all. If there is any moisture in the pores of the metal, running vegetable oil over it won't do. That is one area where I join the 21st century.

I agree. I wash my bores in soapy water, rinse with non soapy water, dry real well, and use that birchwood gun sheath. It displaces water and prevents rust. No rust as of yet

 

[Ice Tigre]

Today, I scrubber the rust out(more fouling too), with hot soapy water. Ran the brush a lot. Rinsed in hot clean water. Patch dried, heated the barrel HOT(too hot fore bare hands) with a heat gun while I was drying. Swabbed it out with a generous amount of WD40 :v , heated and dried it again. Man was it shiny in there!(I like that bore light!)Ran a few more drying patches just because, and ran a couple patches liberaly soaked in castor oil.

We'll see how it does this time. :thumbsup:

The whole thing too about an hour and a half and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Funny....I always have enjoyed the gun cleaning process. :youcrazy:

Thanks again guys! I'll drop a note here in a few days, saying how it holds up.

Gary

 

[roundball]

"....Swabbed it out with a generous amount of WD40...."

Remember, the last thing you put in the bore was a petroleum based product...need to get it out of there before you start shooting again...ie: patches wet with alcohol to rinse the WD40 out

 

[Ice Tigre]

"....Swabbed it out with a generous amount of WD40...."

Remember, the last thing you put in the bore was a petroleum based product...need to get it out of there before you start shooting again...ie: patches wet with alcohol to rinse the WD40 out

Errr... well the last thing was actualy 4 dry patches after the WD40 and then a couple with lots of castor oil.

I've been running a wet patch (sagebrush cleaner) and 2 dry patches before I make the first shot.
I might just use the alchohol though....

I just don't trust to leave just the WD40 in there. had to add something heavier.

:thumbsup:

Gary