Deep rifling for rbs. Really???

[Stumpkiller]

I don't think the deep, round grooved rifling is for better initial accuracy as much as prolonged accuracy between barrel wipings.

If you only run a spit cleaning patch every fifth shot you'll do better with the deeper rifling.

 

[Zonie]

For years, Dixie Gunworks has said the TC Hawken has .005 deep button rifled grooves.

Bore, .500, grooves .510 for a 50,

Bore, .540, grooves, .550 for a 54.

I don't know if they are right or not but that's what their catalog says.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Iirc, Tc had at least 3 different rifling configuration for the Tc hawken. The first and most common was the 1:48 that was .006. I think they had a slower deeper rifling for round balls available for a bit. Then that qla barrel.

 

[roundball]

Don't know...one would hope they'd be right given that's their business

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Just went through the TC Cat No.: 4 and found that TC pretty much said nothing about the type of rifling in the catalog except that the barrels were perfect for their maxiball conical.

 

[yelnif]

Iirc, Tc had at least 3 different rifling configuration for the Tc hawken. The first and most common was the 1:48 that was .006. I think they had a slower deeper rifling for round balls available for a bit. Then that qla barrel.

I have the TC-1:48 and it is very accurate; 490 ball with 75gr of 3f goex and .015 ticking. I would have gotten the longer 1:60 barrel at the time but did not know about it before buying.
what is a "qla" barrel? never heard about it?
Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack - just a question in passing. white smoke ya'all.

 

[bpd303]

Basically a barrel that was intended to load conical's easier but turned out to be a flop. Here is how T/C described it.

T/C's QLA® Muzzle System (Quick, Load, Accurizor) is basicly a built in "false muzzle". Many old time target shooters used to attach a false muzzle to their rifle barrel for loading purposes, to guarantee precise alignment of the projectile during the loading procedure. They would then remove the "false muzzle" prior to shooting. The "false muzzle" also protected the rifling from being damaged or worn during loading. T/C's QLA® Muzzle is built right into the end of the barrel in all of our rifles permanently. It guarantees consistent alignment of your projectile in that its surrounded by steel for 360 degrees prior to being driven down the bore and engraved with the rifling. The projectile can't tilt, and the shape can't be altered (lead is soft) as it is started down the bore. This consistent alignment from shot to shot greatly improves the accuracy potential of the rifle by eliminating one of the variable associated with good accuracy... projectile alignment. T/C's QLA® Muzzle System also makes loading your second shot in the field much easier. You merely drop the projectile in the barrel and go straight to your ramrod, using short strokes. It eliminates the hassle of trying to align the projectile with one hand, and drive it into the rifling with a short starter.

 

[nkbj]

Want to share my thoughts of the day after shooting all day with a shallow grooved rifle.

My thought is that the common idea of needing deep rifling for shooting round balls accurately, May not be entirely true.

I shoot the rifle in question as accurately as any of my others that have much deeper grooves. It hit a pie plate at 150 measured yards with great regularity from the bench. Ended the session with 8 hits in succession at that range.

An added bonus of the shallow grooved bore is that cleanup is quicker and easier.

Just my thought of the day after shooting a hundred rounds with a friend.

What say you?

Best regards, Skychief.

Without getting into the widths and the number of grooves, what I've run into is that shallow grooves can work great with round ball if there are enough groove shoulders (in number as opposed to depth) to perform their desired function. And as Zonie maybe alluded to above, too much spin is like throwing a curve ball, introducing additional shot to shot variables. My Sheba gun is a .401 bore / .410 groove with 16" twist. It'll shoot .397 ball to minute of squirrel head as far as I can sight on a squirrel head, which aint so far any more. Guess I could just blow the branch off with a 400 grainer and yell sic'em to the May Bell. :rotf:

 

[yelnif]

Basically a barrel that was intended to load conical's easier but turned out to be a flop. Here is how T/C described it.

T/C's QLA® Muzzle System (Quick, Load, Accurizor) is basicly a built in "false muzzle". Many old time target shooters used to attach a false muzzle to their rifle barrel for loading purposes, to guarantee precise alignment of the projectile during the loading procedure. They would then remove the "false muzzle" prior to shooting. The "false muzzle" also protected the rifling from being damaged or worn during loading. T/C's QLA® Muzzle is built right into the end of the barrel in all of our rifles permanently. It guarantees consistent alignment of your projectile in that its surrounded by steel for 360 degrees prior to being driven down the bore and engraved with the rifling. The projectile can't tilt, and the shape can't be altered (lead is soft) as it is started down the bore. This consistent alignment from shot to shot greatly improves the accuracy potential of the rifle by eliminating one of the variable associated with good accuracy... projectile alignment. T/C's QLA® Muzzle System also makes loading your second shot in the field much easier. You merely drop the projectile in the barrel and go straight to your ramrod, using short strokes. It eliminates the hassle of trying to align the projectile with one hand, and drive it into the rifling with a short starter.

Thanks bpd, now I know

 

[nkbj]

Had a barrel with the QLA on it. The counterbore had a flat bottom shoulder on it with no bevel into the rifling. Talked about it with the guys in the shop at TC. Found out that that was normal for the QLA. So, looks like to me that it could have been a pretty good idea but execution of the idea in manufacturing made an impractical device.
The barrel got relined and is now a favorite rifle.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Accuracy is all relative. A hunter may be happy with paper plate at 50 yds groups. A picky hunter/plinker may only be happy with 4 inch at 100 yds groups and a bench rest shooter wants one ragged hole at 100 yds.

On another site, I heard a 3 inch group at 50 yds called "excellent" by several posters. Considering it was shot from a lead sled, I sure didn't think the word was an appropriate description, even it it had been a smoothbore. I once put 5 shots from a 32 into a postage stamp at 25 yds, offhand. That was impressive for me, but far from excellent. I did not even place in the match.

 

[azmntman]

 

[AZbpBurner]

A couple of the snooty-tooty purists liked to point and snicker at the lefthanded flint .54 cal Deerstalker I had leaning up against the bench as I unpacked my shooting bag. As production guns go, it's cheap, and doesn't even have a brass buttplate, so it's too incorrect to be of any possible utility.

I had 2 choices: either buttstroke them both to get the peace and quiet I wanted to be able to enjoy a day at the range,

or

set out enough grapefruit for everyone to shoot at.

I can bust grapefruit all day long shooting standing, and challenged the louder of the 2, who happened to have a mighty fine-looking caplock he'd finished building recently. It was more fun just looking at the woodgrain and the fine finish on the rifle than the thoughts of blowing up grapefruit.

Of course I had to fire first, and spattered grapefruit guts all over the 100 yard dirt berm.

Next shooter was adjusting his fancy leather sandbags, when I told him that, to make it fair and uniform, he needed to stand up, big boy style and shoot offhand, like I had done.

My advantage was waving around a 25" long barrel, vs his standing and firing his 42+" barrel.

They subsequently left me alone the rest of the day, only giving me the occasional stinkeye for my better performance from a cheap, economy priced production gun (and flintlock) that doesn't even have a set trigger, even though I've spent endless hours to get it to release smoothly and to my satisfaction.

Rifling depth, flat or round groove bottom, wide or narrow lands - all that stuff doesn't matter a whit when you've already paid for a rifle and have it on hand. What does matter is a good fit between ball and patch, a balanced powder load, and familiarity with how your rifle performs.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Unfortunately you make the mistake of confusing in ate accuracy of a style of rifling with marksmanship. The two are only marginally related.

Assuming you are the expert shot you say, then your gun is only capable of grape fruit sized groups at 100 yds. Hardly anything to brag about when bench rest shooters are busting grapes all day at the same distance.

 

[nkbj]

In ate accuracy? Is that a grapefruit joke?
Just kidding!

:haha:

 

[azmntman]

Id brag loud n clear if I could regularly smack a grapefruit off hand at 100 yds. I can out the ol corolla door with many of my guns but off hand a much different story. And of course myself and 90% of us here (and there) cannot see a grape at 100 yds (least it was painted bright orange, which is grounds to assume one has too much time on they're hands? :hmm: )

 

[zimmerstutzen]

See that's where you and I differ
I have kept my offhand hundred yds groups under 5 inches. Granted that was 15 years ago when I still competed every weekend.
I shot clay birds sitting on the backstop with a 44 mag at exhibitions in my college days.
I have seen folks pick an m & m by color off a fence post at 50 yds
Folks were far better shots than I ever was. There are several folks who can nail grape fruit at 100 yds with smooth bores.

 

[azmntman]

I will hit the weight machine and get back to ya...

Still wont be able to see m/m colars at 50 yds but if ya stand there and point em out I bet I can hit em :rotf:

 

[jamesthomas]

That's real good there, offhand and all, I probably would have a hard time seeing a grapefruit. A grapefruit is smaller than the kill zone on a deer and if you really look at it a grapefruit is around 4 inches, and that's NOT diameter its a 4 inch group offhand which is better than Zimmermans 5 inches.

 

[jamesthomas]

Hardly anything to brag about when bench rest shooters are busting grapes all day at the same distance.

Yea, benchrest rifle shooters with a high power scope! :slap: There is nobody out there shooting grapes with a flintlock muzzleloader at 100yards :bull: . they may be shooting AT them but they're not hitting them.