Developing a Load-What would your next step be?

[Splais]

For what it's worth, the lock has never bothered me; I'm not even aware of it, ignition is near instantanious also. I'm also shooting off a very solid bench now that I have tightened my setup a bit. I'm not going to the range again until I have time to work on several things and shoot more than one or two groups. and I'm going to ask GM about those .445 balls; but I've two people tell me they use 445's in their GM 445's.

 

[shortstring]

Something to kick around (and you have) is what your eyesight is costing you. Personally I would epoxy a peep sight on the rear end of the barrel for your testing. Just take a piece of 1/16" X 1/2" steel bend the end of it up to 90 degrees & drill a 1/16' hole thru it for the peep. After you're done a little heat will release it from the barrel.

I tend to agree with you as far as doing your shooting at 50yds. Years ago I set up a machine rest & at first thought that I could learn from the tool by shooting at shorter ranges. That logic that a 3/4" group at 25yds will be a 1 1/2" group at 50yds is not true. In reality a poor load seems to deviate from point of aim in the shape of a bugle. I found that most anything reasonable would give me one hole groups at 25yds & some of the same loads would be 4" at 50.

There's different opinions as far as ball size is concerned. My own FWIW is that you'll get your best with .445 or bigger & .018 or thicker patch. As far as powder goes you might find the most accurate load any where between 40 & 80 grains. Without trying there's no way of knowing.

It gets worse. How you rest the gun & how you hold the thing on the bench will be a factor in the accuracy you get out of it. As you shoot, watch the recoil of the gun. It should recoil to the same place each time you pull the trigger. If one shot recoils to a different place it's a good bet that the shot will print different also.

 

[Splais]

Well, very interesting. I just talked to Grn Mtn. They don't even recommend using a .440 ball in my barrel. They suggest .445 for hunting and .451 for target shooting and patches between .015-.018. Powder charges between 50-75 grs depending on what works best. This setup is what I stumbled on by switching to the .445 ball.

 

[musketman]

When working up your load, may I suggest only switching one thing at a time, if you change more than one variable, how do you know which change worked and which one didn't?

 

[Mike 56]

I have bad eyes i put a peice of black tape on my right lens of my eye glasses with a pin hole. Try different size holes this has helped me see the targets a lot better.

mike

 

[robertdale]

really sounds likeyour are close to a good load. just need some more shots dn range.
I am up in q-site and would like to shoot with you some time if thats cool.
[email protected]

 

[Splais]

I beleive my search is coming to an end using the .445 balls. I snuck out and fired another string. shot a 3 shot group smaller than a quarter near center of bull and two others on the edge and I know what happened on those two. A little more testing then I'll post my first five shot bull pattern.

the current load is 60 gr fffg, .445 ball, .017(compressed) ticking patch, 6:1 water/Ballistol dry lube.

My testing so far has answered several questions.

1) I was getting first shot flyers for a while with the .440 balls. I now believe that is because the balls/patching was just too small in a clean barrel and the gun didn't start to shot better until some fouling built up.

2) no matter what patch I used I was getting different degrees of spread pattern because those .440 balls were just too small.

3) I know believe you cannot shoot repeating shots in a BP powder rifle without having the bore in identical condition for all shots, however you achieve that condition.

4) My eyesight is not as bad as I suspected. My goal now is quarter size groups off the bench.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Hey! Hey! Congratulations. I think you have it! It just takes practice, and you are obviously committed to do this enough to put in that time. Good for you. You are an inspiration to a lot of readers of this forum, and not a few members, too. Keep it up. I can't wait to see your next targets. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

Paul

 

[sproulman]

i shoot at 13 yds to sight in my t/c hawkins.

i use 6 o,clock hold.

then at 25 yards, i have same hold but 1 inch high..

i use big piece of white cardboard paper.

i put a small black dot in middle of white paper.

i use a dime to make black dot at 13 yds and quarter to draw it at 25 yds..


secret is the black dot as small as you can see at 13/25 yds,same with 50 yds but i shoot only at 25 most .

 

[sproulman]

First off...can the sights be improved? I've got the same problem but my eyes are 76 yrs old. I've found that a front blade .100 thick w/ a silver insert soldered in is about right. The rear sight when looking at the notch in firing position is twice the width of the blade. These are the sights on my squirrel rifle w/ a 42" bbl which is used for "head hunting" squirrels.....Fred

i moved my rmc v-peep back in front of my frizzen on my hawkins t/c flintlock.

had gunsmith drill hole and put it there.

its much better even tho the rear sight is blurry,the front is clear so as long as it is in the hole, i forget rear sight.

this is best i have used for deer hunting.

great at target too but not as accurate as other finer sights because you can move around in the aperature of v-peep..

but for me, mounted in that spot, its great for me

 

[Dphar]

Lyman makes a "Hawkeye Shooters Optic Aid" its like the Merit thing that suction cups to a lens of you glasses but cheaper. This greatly increases your ability to see the sights.

Cabella's has them for about 26 bucks including postage to Montana. Came in a box big enough for
I have one but have not shot with it yet been shooting a rifle with a tang sight the last couple of times out.

Dan

 

[mattorschell]

You guys are talking about compressed ticking, is that how its purchsed or do you have to compress it yourself? If you have to do it yourself how do you do this?

 

[mattorschell]

I also have a GM barrell and I use a .451 ball and a .010 pre-cut patch with 60Grains of 3f. After reading this post I want to see if I can find a better ball/patch combo. I am new at this so thats what someone recommended when I started so thats what I went with and have not changed.It seems like it takes some time to find the correct combo. What is the odds if you was to buy two of the exact barrells from any barrell maker and the load/patch/ball combo be the same?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Take a micrometer that has a clutch feed and measures to the 10,000ths of an inch to the fabric store. Measure the thickness of various cotton fabrics with the mick, using the clutch feed. The clutch give you a uniform compression factor to use. That is about the best you can do at the store. The fabrics come with a " Sizing " in them. "Sizing" is a starch like addition to allow the fabrics to lay flat, and compress well for shipping. That "sizing " has to be washed out of the fabric before you can find out how much the fabric will actually compress. So wash the cloth at home, and dry it. Then measure it again with your micrometer.

In actual shooting, we " Compress" the fabric when its pushed into the barrel, lubed, and around a Round Lead Ball, using a short starter at the muzzle. In rifles, the fabric can move a bit to one side or another as its compressed, and push out into the grooves between the lands. In a smoothbore, you don't have that " give " and the patch has to be fitted much more carefully to the diameter of the bore, and the diameter of the lead ball. Considering the diameter of most smoothbores, you only want to push the ball down the muzzle with your thumb, so the patch/ball combination is much "looser" than it would be on a rifle, unless the rifle muzzle is coned to allow a thumb fit. The large lead balls OBTURATE in the bore when the gun is fired, pushing sideways and forcing more of the patch fabric against the bore of the barrel.

 

[Splais]

Since I started this thread I will comment on my progress. I have taken a couple weeks off involved in other things.

I was grouping (or not grouping is more like it) all over the target. Thought I would never get a group better than 3-4" at 50 yrds. Then I did three things.

1) I got Dutch Schultz accuracy system and adopted his dry lube system - to date using a 6:1 dry lube and still experimenting.

2) I called Green Mtn and found out they recoomend a .445 vice the .440 ball I was using, in their 45 cal barrel. This change instantly cut my group size in half.

3. I pretty much clean the bore after each shot. Try to keep the bore in exactly the same condition for each shot. Moist patch, then slight spit patch, then load; after about three shots I'll run a third patch. If I don't do this my shots start to spread after the second or third shot.

If i'm careful my groups are quarter to fifty cent size now off the bench. Two things seemed to make the difference: finding the correct ball size; and keeping the bore as close to identical as possible for each shot.

I don't know why everyone doesn't use the dry lube system: it's extremely consistent and powder contamination is not an issue. Currently I mix 6 parts water with 1 part Ballistol, soak long strips of patching for several minutes; then lay out flat to dry. when dry cut into 1" x 2" pieces and cut at muzzle with sharp knife.

If I've learned anything in my journey so far, it's the more you keep as many things consistent as possible the better you will shoot.

 

[Dphar]

You guys are talking about compressed ticking, is that how its purchsed or do you have to compress it yourself? If you have to do it yourself how do you do this?

They put pressure on the measuring device the compress the fabric to more what it will be when on the ball in the barrel.
I measure mine with a mic and don't bother over compressing. Every one measurements are relative since the amount of "compression" from one to the next is not uniform. Heavy ticking as I measure it runs .020 or so.
Linen is harder to compress than cotton and linen of equal thickness will compress less and load harder than cotton.
Linen, uniform tight weave linen, used to be the preferred patch material with discriminating shooters. But good high thread count linen is harder to find today.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

I don't know why everyone doesn't use the dry lube system: it's extremely consistent and powder contamination is not an issue. Currently I mix 6 parts water with 1 part Ballistol, soak long strips of patching for several minutes; then lay out flat to dry. when dry cut into 1" x 2" pieces and cut at muzzle with sharp knife.

The dry patch probably increases load inertia and almost surely will reduce standard deviation of the loads. Proving it shoots best in every barrel would require a lot of shooting. You might try weighing all you powder charges too if you want to get to this level. Drop tubes in the barrel will also improve accuracy in some guns, especially slug guns or picket rifles.
You could also try WD-40 or some similar spray can lube that drys in a couple of days.
Barrels can be very individualistic and some probably will shoot best with some other system of lube.
I can shoot groups around 6" with my 54 flint at 200 with a tang sight. I brush and dump the dry fouling out (I live in a low humidity region), damp patch then load with a ticking patch greased on one side with SPG bullet lube and cut at the muzzle with the ball just flush.
Any time that the fouling can be felt effecting the ball being pushed down its going to have some effect in accuracy.
For shorter distances oiled patches seem OK but the longer the distance the more critical all this becomes.
The dry patch system and some "greases" are marginal for hunting when reloading without wiping is generally a good idea.
So the dry patch, while useful, is not a panacea for everyone and every use.
It also increases the work load to me. For most shooting I precut the patches and oil them in a tin box with a lid using Neatsfoot or Sperm whale oil. I can shoot my 16 bore rifle about as long as I want loaded this way. Being a hunting rifle I see little use in trying to wipe it every shot since its not going to be used this way hunting. it shoots pretty well this way to 150 yards so I have not tried wiping between shots.
Now, thinking about it, my curiosity is engaged and I will have to do some experimentation with it over the summer.

Dan

 

[Splais]

Dan, thanks for the info. I might say, my original intent in starting all this was two fold. Originally my groups were so bad that I wasn't at all sure my ball was going anywhere near were I was aiming. It's bad enough to not be able to hold true off hand; but if you ball then hits 6-8" away from whatever your actual point of aim was - well...

Secondly I want a load were I could use the same load punching targets and out hunting rabbits. When I'm out hunting I'll only get off maybe two or three shots so wiping is not an issue. From my personal need developing a dry lube load solves my problem for same load hunting and target.

I may not always hit what I'm aiming at; but at least now I know it's my fault and not the gun's when I miss.

 

[Don B]

If you clean after every shot, how do you explain your first-shot fliers, which you attributed to a lack of fouling. After the the barrel fouled for follow-on shots, you reported that your goups tightened up.

I ask because I've struggled with the same problem. I clean carefully after every shot, but the first shot is still often an outlier from the rest of the group. I presume that there is a factor (beyond barrel cleanliness)that I haven't yet found and controlled.

Don

 

[Don B]

Dan Phariss said: Being a hunting rifle I see little use in trying to wipe it every shot since its not going to be used this way hunting.

Do you find that your point of impact drifts until the fouling stabilizes? If so, how do you deal with it in the field?

Don