Differences in Smooth Bore firearms

[SmoothboreMurph]

I have a Pedersoli Brown Bess that I have posted about before on this forum and thanks to help of many on this forum I have been guided in the right direction to skillfully manage the weapon. I have been able to achieve great accuracy at 50 yards by using a .735 Round ball with a .010 patch inside of a paper cartridge which is a very snug fit. However there is still much to be desired. I know that I will not be able to achieve the same accuracy as a rifle due to the lack of rifling in the barrel, but I now have more insight into a more accurate weapon. A few days ago I was doing some target practice on my farm with a few friends and one of my friends brought his father in law who had a French Fusil de chasse. It had a 44" 12 gauge barrel and at 50 yards I was shooting the best groups I had ever made. My question is why is this Fusil so much more accurate than my Bess if they are both smoothbore ? Is it length of barrel or weight of weapon ? Or is it just dumb luck ? Any information or input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Daryl Crawford]

Better experts on here than me, but I'll chime in. Load development is a huge variable. That coupled with barrel length and the speed of the lock/ignition combine to make even greater variables. Stock differences also effect how we mount the weapon to our cheek (cheek-stock weld) and only increases the variables as play.
More load development on your weapon, coupled with practice, and possible work on improving the speed of ignition and you MIGHT get very similar results. Much like a long bow, the feel of the rifle is very individual. Maybe you just naturally hold better with that FDC stock.

 

[tenngun]

No hard evidence of this my self only what I THINK
Velocity, smaller ball is faster and has less time in flight to vear off
My 28 bore, seems to shoot better then my FDC
Weight of the gun and hold
The Bess is a spear that shoots. A lighter hunting gun holds better, my 28 is a smooth rifle and it ‘hangs’ even better then my FDC
And better sights, a true front sight vs a bayonet lug

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

Better experts on here than me, but I'll chime in. Load development is a huge variable. That coupled with barrel length and the speed of the lock/ignition combine to make even greater variables. Stock differences also effect how we mount the weapon to our cheek (cheek-stock weld) and only increases the variables as play.
More load development on your weapon, coupled with practice, and possible work on improving the speed of ignition and you MIGHT get very similar results. Much like a long bow, the feel of the rifle is very individual. Maybe you just naturally hold better with that FDC stock.

Interesting, my Bess shoots only well with a .735 ball with a .010 in a cartridge with 120g FF powder. Anything else deviated from that and the Bess isn't nearly as accurate as it is now. On contrast the Fusil I fired was 12 gauge firing a .720 ball patched with a .015 patch and 100g FF but it isn't nearly as tight when I rammed it down compared to my load. Maybe you are on to something about the stock, I have seen people of the rifle thread talk about the stock drop being most accurate. Thank you for the input.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

No hard evidence of this my self only what I THINK
Velocity, smaller ball is faster and has less time in flight to vear off
My 28 bore, seems to shoot better then my FDC
Weight of the gun and hold
The Bess is a spear that shoots. A lighter hunting gun holds better, my 28 is a smooth rifle and it ‘hangs’ even better then my FDC
And better sights, a true front sight vs a bayonet lug

As I mentioned to Mr. Crawford, I shoot a .735 ball with a .010 patch whilst the FDC shoots a .720 ball with a .015 patch, could that .015" be that much to make all that difference in accuracy ? Also is 28 gauge good for White tail deer ? The owner of the FDC used a 12 gauge but said he would never go smaller than 16 gauge for Deer and that 20 gauge would be an extreme exception. Have you ever bagged a Deer or relative sized animal with your 28 gauge ? Lastly what is the difference between a FDC and a smooth rifle ?

 

[Daryl Crawford]

My 50 and 54 drop deer. Just like a 58, 62 or larger. A 28g will definitely drop a deer so long as the shooter does their part. .005 variance in patch can create difference in groups. It can also make loading a bit different after the first shot.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

My 50 and 54 drop deer. Just like a 58, 62 or larger. A 28g will definitely drop a deer so long as the shooter does their part. .005 variance in patch can create difference in groups. It can also make loading a bit different after the first shot.

I would assume the .50 and .54 are rifles, I have only ever hunted with a ML Rifle once and it was a caplock .50cal (I never saw a deer that day) other than that all my shooting has been done with a smoothie and it has kind of grown on me due to its versatility as a shotgun type weapon. Have you ever hunted and or harvested a Deer or relative sized animal with a smoothbore ?

 

[Daryl Crawford]

I have turkey, squirrel and pheasant hunted with it. The fellow who sold me the .62 smoothbore took deer with it. .56, 58 an 62 are fine for deer. Obviously if load is too light, none are good. A proper load, in my weapon that's 80gr with patched round ball, will do the job.

 

[tenngun]

As I mentioned to Mr. Crawford, I shoot a .735 ball with a .010 patch whilst the FDC shoots a .720 ball with a .015 patch, could that .015" be that much to make all that difference in accuracy ? Also is 28 gauge good for White tail deer ? The owner of the FDC used a 12 gauge but said he would never go smaller than 16 gauge for Deer and that 20 gauge would be an extreme exception. Have you ever bagged a Deer or relative sized animal with your 28 gauge ? Lastly what is the difference between a FDC and a smooth rifle ?

The FDC you shot was a took a .720 ball?
I’ve not seen one that big. My FDC is .62, 20 bore and shoots a .600 or .595 ball
A 28 bore is about .55, and I shoot a .530 ball and it has plenty of power on deer, as I can easily stick my thumb in the exit wound
A smooth rifle looks just like a rifle in stock shape. They were sometime called rifle mounted fusils back in the day. The difference is mostly stylistic differences in the stock. My smooth rifle and my FDC

 

[PathfinderNC]

Remember that the Bess was not designed to be really ‘aimed’ as much as to be pointed. The Fusil on the other hand is a hunting gun and designed to be aimed.

 

[coloradoclyde]

My question is why is this Fusil so much more accurate than my Bess if they are both smoothbore ? Is it length of barrel or weight of weapon ? Or is it just dumb luck ? Any information or input would be greatly appreciated.

Could be all of those things, or more. Sometimes a particular gun is just easier for a person to shoot.

 

[Brokennock]

Interesting, my Bess shoots only well with a .735 ball with a .010 in a cartridge with 120g FF powder. Anything else deviated from that and the Bess isn't nearly as accurate as it is now. On contrast the Fusil I fired was 12 gauge firing a .720 ball patched with a .015 patch and 100g FF but it isn't nearly as tight when I rammed it down compared to my load. Maybe you are on to something about the stock, I have seen people of the rifle thread talk about the stock drop being most accurate. Thank you for the input.

Smoothbores are not rifles, all the "rules" don't seem to apply.
Both my smoothbore guns shoot better with looser, easier to load, ball/patch or ball/wads combinations.

You are shooting two very different guns with different stock architecture and different barrel lengths and profiles,,, but neither has a rear sight.
I'm betting the Fusil des Chase (F.d.C.) just fits you better and thus points and shoots where you are looking.
It would be interesting to see how things compare if you were to stick some type of temporary rear sight on both guns and try again.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

The FDC you shot was a took a .720 ball?
I’ve not seen one that big. My FDC is .62, 20 bore and shoots a .600 or .595 ball
A 28 bore is about .55, and I shoot a .530 ball and it has plenty of power on deer, as I can easily stick my thumb in the exit wound
A smooth rifle looks just like a rifle in stock shape. They were sometime called rifle mounted fusils back in the day. The difference is mostly stylistic differences in the stock. My smooth rifle and my FDCView attachment 79849View attachment 79850

Yea his FDC has a Colerain 44" 12 gauge .725 bore barrel, it originally had a 16 gauge barrel on it that was .665 bore but he decided to go bigger in 2014.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

Smoothbores are not rifles, all the "rules" don't seem to apply.
Both my smoothbore guns shoot better with looser, easier to load, ball/patch or ball/wads combinations.

You are shooting two very different guns with different stock architecture and different barrel lengths and profiles,,, but neither has a rear sight.
I'm betting the Fusil des Chase (F.d.C.) just fits you better and thus points and shoots where you are looking.
It would be interesting to see how things compare if you were to stick some type of temporary rear sight on both guns and try again.

I actually have a corner bracket rear sight on my brown bess hence my accuracy with it, I made it out of corner bracket so it is like a rear peep sight. His FDC however only has a front blade sight.

 

[bjarard]

Remember that the Bess was not designed to be really ‘aimed’ as much as to be pointed. The Fusil on the other hand is a hunting gun and designed to be aimed.

Elaborating on the above excellent point. The British did not even bother "aiming" their Besses. They leveled them with the command of Present. These weapons were meant to be fired en masse at groups of men...not aimed individually. The balls essentially bounced down the barrel and where it bounced last was where it was going. If it hit the man next to the person you were "levelling" at...then so be it.

 

[Ranger 1755]

I have been shooting a Pedersoli Short Land Pattern musket for about 40 years now. A s a few have said, a lot can be learned from load development. Also, the lock on these guns tend to be a little heavy regarding the springs and it is a military lock. Mine did better after I tuned it, stoned the inside and relieved the feather (frizzen) spring a bit. Proper flint and placement in the jaw helped. I also used a dremmel to slightly lower the pan as the touch hole was low in relationship. It is much better now but any military gun is not a custom fowler.

 

[Irishmusket]

The smooth bore musket is not a rifle .a patched ball in a Brown Bess will not improve its accuracy a bit in fact it will make it worse a patch on the ball is connect the ball to rifling a musket dose not have rifling the tighter the ball the less accurate the shot with a musket The standard ball size for the Brown bess musket according to British regulations is 690 not712 or 735 on top of the modern equivalent charge 3 drams of 1 f black powder wrapped in a paper cartridge.you simply secure your cock on safety .Bite or tear open your cartridge prime your musket secure your frizzen dump the rest of the powder in the cartridge down your barrel and ram down ball wrapped in paper cartridge give it good tap to seat it well on the charge.A British infantryman was required to shot 3+ rounds a minute .Like I said smooth bore muskets are not rifles they are not a precise shooter like rifles .They are however much more useful than a rifle for hunting they are excellent shotguns and more effective than most modern smooth bore shot guns with slugs for Hunting you can not beat the Brown Bess shot or ball it dose it all and well

 

[bjarard]

The smooth bore musket is not a rifle .a patched ball in a Brown Bess will not improve its accuracy a bit in fact it will make it worse a patch on the ball is connect the ball to rifling a musket dose not have rifling the tighter the ball the less accurate the shot with a musket The standard ball size for the Brown bess musket according to British regulations is 690 not712 or 735 on top of the modern equivalent charge 3 drams of 1 f black powder wrapped in a paper cartridge.you simply secure your cock on safety .Bite or tear open your cartridge prime your musket secure your frizzen dump the rest of the powder in the cartridge down your barrel and ram down ball wrapped in paper cartridge give it good tap to seat it well on the charge.A British infantryman was required to shot 3+ rounds a minute .Like I said smooth bore muskets are not rifles they are not a precise shooter like rifles .They are however much more useful than a rifle for hunting they are excellent shotguns and more effective than most modern smooth bore shot guns with slugs for Hunting you can not beat the Brown Bess shot or ball it dose it all and well

If fact...brown besses were so good at being shotguns that they were found at Chickamauga, used by Confederate forces, who favored them for that exact reason.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

The smooth bore musket is not a rifle .a patched ball in a Brown Bess will not improve its accuracy a bit in fact it will make it worse a patch on the ball is connect the ball to rifling a musket dose not have rifling the tighter the ball the less accurate the shot with a musket The standard ball size for the Brown bess musket according to British regulations is 690 not712 or 735 on top of the modern equivalent charge 3 drams of 1 f black powder wrapped in a paper cartridge.you simply secure your cock on safety .Bite or tear open your cartridge prime your musket secure your frizzen dump the rest of the powder in the cartridge down your barrel and ram down ball wrapped in paper cartridge give it good tap to seat it well on the charge.A British infantryman was required to shot 3+ rounds a minute .Like I said smooth bore muskets are not rifles they are not a precise shooter like rifles .They are however much more useful than a rifle for hunting they are excellent shotguns and more effective than most modern smooth bore shot guns with slugs for Hunting you can not beat the Brown Bess shot or ball it dose it all and well

Patching the ball has seemed to improve accuracy for my Brown Bess tenfold. I started out with a .715 ball in a paper cartridge and at 50 yards I would sometimes hit paper. Now with a .735 ball and a tight patch inside a paper cartridge the entire barrel is filled up and with a rear sight I make great groups at 50 yards. The whole point of this thread was to try and find the reason why the FDC is a better smoothie than mine, I realize the smoothbore has no rifling but the patch takes up the extra space left by the ball giving my round more contact on the barrel surfaces so that it doesn't wildy move down the barrel. I am trying to hit a precise target not a French infantry column hence why I am taking these measures to improve accuracy. I am new to Muzzleloading and I have never heard of or seen a Fusil de Chasse and the internet isn't helpful because it can only give a history lesson, so I turned to the forum for experienced answers. I hope this helps in a sense. Thank you for your input none the less.

 

[BP Addict]

The smooth bore musket is not a rifle .a patched ball in a Brown Bess will not improve its accuracy a bit in fact it will make it worse a patch on the ball is connect the ball to rifling a musket dose not have rifling the tighter the ball the less accurate the shot with a musket The standard ball size for the Brown bess musket according to British regulations is 690 not712 or 735 on top of the modern equivalent charge 3 drams of 1 f black powder wrapped in a paper cartridge.you simply secure your cock on safety .Bite or tear open your cartridge prime your musket secure your frizzen dump the rest of the powder in the cartridge down your barrel and ram down ball wrapped in paper cartridge give it good tap to seat it well on the charge.A British infantryman was required to shot 3+ rounds a minute .Like I said smooth bore muskets are not rifles they are not a precise shooter like rifles .They are however much more useful than a rifle for hunting they are excellent shotguns and more effective than most modern smooth bore shot guns with slugs for Hunting you can not beat the Brown Bess shot or ball it dose it all and well

I've shot round balls in my .62 cal. NW Trade gun with both patches and wads. I get way better accuracy with a pillow ticking patch and a .600 Round Ball than I do with wads.