Do I need a chronograph?

[greyghost]

I have a question for all of you knowledgable gentlemen. Like in car racing, I am a driver and not the mechanic. In other words I shoot but I don't build --- yet. I shoot a custom made .45 cal. with a GM barrel, large Siler lock and R E Davis double set triggers. The barrel is 7/8x42" with a 1 in 60 twist. I'm shooting a .440 roundball with a .010 patch in front of 70 grs of Swiss powder. My question is, am I going to have to buy a chrono to tell how my rifle shoots or is there another way to discover the ballistics? Any good advice would be appreciated. Thanks :bow:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I think your patch choice is wrong, but that depends on the Actual dimensions of that bore, both land to land( bore diameter) and groove to groove. As for determining actual velocity, ONLY a chronograph will tell you that information. There are just too many variables in loading a MLer, particular flintlocks, to be able to tell you the velocity any other way.

I converted a percussion action rifle to flintlock, and everything I thought I knew about the gun changed. I eventually was able to shoot the flintlock as well as I had the percussion version, but powder charge changed, patch thickness changed, lube changed, and I eventually had to drill out my vent to stop the misfires. Since I did all that, and established a decent shooting load, with which I have hunted game, I have tried using OP wads, and found that I get better velocity and a smaller SDV using it, so I am going back to the drawing board on powder charges again with the gun ( And my chronograph!)

 

[greyghost]

Thank you Paul.

 

[BrownBear]

I suspect you will want to zero in on the info you want to learn, then see if the chrono fits your needs. Basically it's a speedometer to tell you how fast a ball is traveling, and with mutiple shots, how much variation you're getting from shot to shot.

With the velocity #'s you can go to standard ballistics charts like in the Lyman manual and forecast POI at various yardages downrange.

But you can get most of that without the chrono. You might not find your exact load or barrel length in the charts, but closenuff for a good estimate of your own rifle's velocities. You can then shoot at longer ranges for a trajectory check.

Velocity consistency or its lack is likely to show up on your target paper, but not necessarily. I've found loads that varied quite a bit in speed, but nonetheless grouped just fine at closer ranges typical for most muzzleloader shooting.

But chronos are sure fun!!!!

 

[Little Wattsy]

Sorta depends on the "end game" you want to accomplish...IF you want a dead deer, for examply, a chronograph wont help much...IF you want 5 shot "ragged hole" paper groups then it might help you "fine tune" YES it is fun but certianly NOT necessary.

 

[renovato]

The best way to figure it out is tinker till you get the most accurate groups, then start shooting at different distances and seeing how you do. You'll pick up on how much to hold over, what's the best range to zero, etc. It's nice to know the velocity, but it's not critical. If the gun shoots accurately, you've got a good load. The rest is up to you and a chrono isn't a huge help really. I've had one for years and I rarely bother using it with muzzleloaders.

 

[Birddog6]

I shot accurately & thousands of ragged one hole groups for 25 years & never needed a chrono. Got one, used it once or twice, said "thats nice" and have not used it since. It doesn't matter what the velocity is if the powder/ball/patch combo is correct for that rifle. And a chrono is not gonna get ya that.

IMHO, you are using too thin a patch on your rifle. I would try at least a .015 patch & if that loads easy try a .018 or .020 patch.

:thumbsup:

 

[Many Klatch]

I have been shooting muzzleloaders for almost 30 years and have never used a Chronograph. All my shooting is offhand so the accuracy is dependent on how well I hold. It would be nice to know how fast the ball travels when I am sitting around talking shooting with friends, but I don't see how it would make much difference to the gongs and paper targets.

Many Klatch

 

[rabbit03]

No offense but I can tell from what you are shooting now, that you are no where near to getting the performance out of that rifle.

Want my opinion?

Go to a larger size ball like a .445 or even a .450 or .451 if you want to get the most out of the accuracy.

Then increase the patch thickness to about .018 or even .020 but the patching has to be that of a tight weave.

The powder charge can anywhere from 60-90 grans or more, just depending on your rifle and what your shooting at.

My experience has been the Green Mountain Barrels will shoot anything for a powder charge and still leave them in the same hole. Not to be ambiguous here, you must understand that by saying the same hole I mean that for a 70 grn charge it will have them in the same ragged hole at one place on the target and a different charge of powder like 80 or 90 grns will also be in the same hole but a bit higher up on the target.

The slow twist I am pretty sure is the reason why they are so accurate and also very forgiving when it comes to using different loads.

When shooting competition it is a common practice to use one (lessor) powder charge for say 50 yd target then increase the powder charge for whatever you need to hold dead on again at 100 yds. This like I say is done quite alot in competition and you could not be able to do this if the rifle wouldn't shoot different charges with the same accuracy.

Good luck and if you get up to using the above balls and patching give me a shout and I will run a test for you through my chrony. However I use nothing but Goex real black powder and in the .45 I use 3Fg.

rabbit03 :thumbsup:

 

[MSW]

I agree with Birddog as regards the chrono. nice gadget if you have lots of spare cash, but not really necessary- if it were up to me, i'd drop the loot on m ore powder and lead. As regards the patch thickness, i'd go with whatever works best in your particular rifle.

 

[roundball]

IMO, a chronograph is just an available tool that's interesting but not necessary...I'm embarrassed to say I bought one in the year 2000 and never used it until just a few weeks ago and I had already long ago settled on my loads...experimenting with the chronograph is just another chapter in the book of knowledge to see what's what just for the actual first hand experience.

For example, occasionally there are discussions about which produces higher velocity, a rifled bore or a smoothbore in otherwise identical muzzleloaders...and I actually had the chance to test that myself...compared the velocity of identical .62cals except one is smooth and the other is rifled...saw first hand that the rifled bore was a little faster than the smoothbore, contray to what you might first think.

I've tested the difference with and without Oxyoke wads over powder and with a wad the standard deviation settled down to almost nothing (6) attesting to Oxyoke's claim that they'd improve shot to shot consistency...but to my surprise, after theorizing that the wads would also increase velocity I saw first hand that all the loads with wads actually ran about 25 fps slower, contrary to theory.

So no, certainly not necessary but an interesting tool to see actuals if you have a need or desire to...otherwise there are plenty of ballistic charts around, the Lyman BP handbook being one of them that lists various combinations of calibers, barrel lengths, powders, projectiles, etc, so you can get a reasonable idea of what's happening in your situation just by doing a lookup.

 

[dlpowell]

70 grs. in a 45 is way to much for everyday shootin. Taper back about 20 grs and go forward. I use 60 grs in my .54 for plinkin and it's more than enough.

 

[tg]

With ML firearms I don't think there has ever been a way to do without one... :grin:

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Paddlefoot

My rifle is close to yours, I shoot 55gr 3f and can hit the 150 yard 6 inch gong.

go backwards from 70 down to 50 and see if yer group tightens.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Shooting over a chronograph is not going to tell you anything about what your group size will be down range-- ONLY that your load and loading procedures are consistent in generating velocity. Shooting Groups at 25 yards is mostly a waste of time, because almost all guns, and shooters can put bullets into " one hole " at 25 yards, using any kind of rest. ( Even me! :rotf: )

If you are trying to work up accurate loads, you first check WHERE the ball is hitting ( POI) at 25 yards, just to see if you have a large Windage, or Elevation problem to fix to get on the paper at longer distances!

Then move back to 50 yards. At that distance, using open sights, Good vs bad groups are going to begin to show up. When you isolate the good, Move the Target BACK to 100 yards, and shoot there. I have seen many good 50 yard shooters who could not hit the paper regularly, from a rest at 100 yards, largely because of the inconsistent way they loaded their rifles, and even MORE INCONSISTENT way they cleaned( didn't clean) their rifles between shots.

Now, using a chronograph set 15 feet from your muzzle is NOT going to tell you any of this other information. The Suggestion that a chronograph will do this for you is a bit of a Red Herring, IMHO. With an appropriate deflector plate, or shield, using a chronograph at distance, ( 50 or 100 yds) to determine exact velocity of each shot is the BEST and fastest way to determine how YOUR inconsistency in loading and cleaning your gun causes a change in the POI. Sometimes you can't tell. Its true that the way you hold the gun, the position you take with your body, and all the things needed to fire a gun accurately, from your eye and corrective lens, head position, hand positions, breath control, trigger squeeze and release, follow through, etc. all affect where that ball or bullet will go. Sometimes a shooter simply cannot see what he is doing wrong. Asking another experienced shooter to coach you as to shooting form will often improve your groups.

I have found one inconsistency that I Know most shooters do not address, and that is the nasty habit of the brain wanting to look at the target at the last split second, throwing the shot up and away from the main group. This happens with all kind of sights, so changing to a peep, or scope is not going to change this. Finding a way to focus on that front sight through your follow-through makes the difference between being a great shooter, and being that outstanding shooter who always seems to be in the winner's circle.

I have seen shooters who just STOP bouncing their ramrods on their PRBs see their groups at 50 and 100 yards shink, when the practice had no effect on their groups at 25 yards. I have seen shooters change their cleaning practices to clean their barrels thoroughly between shots, instead of NOT cleaning, see their 100 yd. groups shrink to 1/4 the size they were getting. NOne of this is diagnosed by using a chronograph.

You can spend a lot or a little on a chronograph. The Chrony chronograph still costs less than $100 from Sportsman's Guide. Competition Electronics, makes a good chronograph for about $125 or so. If you are talking about the OEHLER chronograph, it is really intended as a laboratory/ indoor shooting range testing machine, and its very expensive. I just checked, and the unit costs $1,800! Pact has a basic model for $169. RST has a basic unit at $199.

You need to do some comparative shopping on FEATURES provided by these companies to figure out what you need, and which machine is the best value for those needs.

Groups size as a measure of accurate loading and cleaning and shooting procedures has been done for hundreds of years. I worked up my best loads doing this for years.

Since I have a chronograph, I am able to find out what exact velocity is the " Sweet spot " for my given gun, and when changing components to work up a different load-- say, changing from FFFg to FFg powder, just to see if I can get better groups--- The chronograph allows me to quickly adjust the load so that I am shooting the ball at the same velocity to get into that Sweetspot. Only then, will I learn if the change in a component is an improvement, or a disaster, AS A RESULT OF THE CHANGE.

For instance, I tried some Walter's Fiber Wads as an OP wad in my .50, and my groups at 50 yards immediately began hitting an inch higher than when I was NOT USING the OP wad. I need to run that particular combination of components over the chronograph, and then shoot my normal load, to see if, and what change there is in the velocity. If I am getting more velocity, I will drop the powder charge amount down until I find out what load to use with the OP wad to get the same POI, since I don't want to change my fixed sights. Then I will decide, by shooting groups with both combinations, which gives the best accuracy for me, and decide if I am going to change my loading procedure and components to include an OP wad, and a reduced powder charge for future shooting.

Finally, I will do a comparison penetration test, to see if there is any difference in penetration performance of my PRB( There should not be.)

Chrnographs are not magic. They do what they do very well. The information they give the shooter is very useful, WHEN THE SHOOTER UNDERSTANDS FULLY HOW TO USE THE INFORMATION. Determining effective group sizes at any given range takes more, and a different kind of load work-up.

 

[kencolamarino]

If you absolutely must know the velocity, you can determine this without a cronograph. Zero at 25 yards the most accurate load you have developed. Carefully shoot now at 100 yards. Note the drop that has occurred in the group at 100 yards. Go to a ballistic program and use 0.056 as the ballistic coefficient for a 0.49 round ball. Set 25 yards as zero in the program. Vary the velocity until the program achieves the same drop that you got at 100 yards on the target. That's your velocity! Now that you know the velocity, you can use the ballistic program to determine any zero or point blank range. Obviosly this is good only for the combination of variables that you used to develop the groups.

This has been useful to me to determine on target velocity and energy figures for varous loads.

 

[nchawkeye]

I see no need for one...The first flinter I owned was a .45, I used 40gs of FFF for squirrels and 75grs for deer...I put a 2x4 up at 75 yards, the ball passed through, I figured I was good and I was, I killed about 25 deer with that rifle...This was in the mid-70s...The reason I shot 40grs for squirrels is that the ball hit at point of aim at 25 yards with that load...

 

[paulvallandigham]

I find your comment amusing. You substitute for a computer called a " chronograph " with another--- COMPUTER! :rotf: :rotf: :blah: And we don't even know the cost of that additional software!

The software programs we have been referred to here all are designed to determine ballistics for conicals, NOT round balls. I found one source, where, when I wrote to the author, he was willing to send me the BCs for RBs for a lot of popular calibers. The .50 cal. has a BC of .068, using a .490 diameter ball that weighs 175 grains.

IOf anyone wants the BC for a RB for another caliber, simply send me a PM and ask. I will be happy to share the information I have. :grin: :thumbsup:

 

[Idaho Ron]

I have had a chronograph for years and I think they are great tools. My Ohler 35 is a awsome chronograph.
Point blank ballistics program is free. it is accurate, even with RB's :thumbsup:
And yes a guy can do as was said before and use it as a rude chronograph and you can get the BC of a bullet at the same time,it isn't hard it just takes some shooting. Ron