Do most builders engrave their own builds?

[Col. Batguano]

I've corresponded with lots and lots of builders over the years, and it seems that the majority of them do NOT do their own engraving. They send it out instead.

What is it about engraving that seems to scare otherwise very good builders and carvers away from tackling that task too? I mean, incise carving and engraving are essentially the same skill set, with the difference being that there is no grain direction to worry about in metal, and you take MUCH longer to cover the same area.

 

[LRB]

They are, with the exception of drawing skills, two different things, and done with different tools. Engraving, IMO, takes much more practice to do well.

 

[kaintuck]

Carving is just detailed wood work....but engraving is pure magic, :surrender:
I found out, I don't have any magical genes....I use my 2engravers for marking drill marks and scribing metal :idunno:

Besides, I need to help others out with pay days....the have dogs and kats to feed too ya know! :grin:

Marc

 

[galamb]

I totally agree with the above comments.

I feel right at home with a piece of wood and any manner of sharp or pointy item working on it.

I have piddled with engraving and feel confident enough to do some very simple lines or designs.

But, I will never approach any great level of competence - I just don't have either the "touch" or the patience to get good at it.

If you look at enough original rifles you will see that some were very good engravers, some were in "my class"

If I had a piece that required engraving anything more complicated than a hashed outline (or similar), I would send it out.

 

[F.G. Ford]

If you have the talent to lay out a design, you're 10% there.
Sharpening gravers is a whole different story than sharpening chisels.
Graver control is different also.
Some people in a hurry will even try an electric graver.
They are handy.........to make a mess a lot quicker.
I worked at the "Royal Canadian Mint" for 15 years. There I worked with the engraving department. Those fellows were magical with their ability to sculpt in brass, steel, whatever.
There I learned, if you don't have the talent, leave it alone.
You can learn it, but you need guidance, kind of learning brain surgery at home.
If you want to make a nice rifle nicer, let somebody who knows what they are doing, to do a good job.
Fred

 

[LRB]

If you have the talent to lay out a design, you're 10% there.
Fred

I'd say closer to 50% there, or more.

 

[Vaino]

All my LRs are engraved by Tim Adlam who is a very talented artist/engraver...in fact a design that he can draw in 10 minutes far surpasses what I could do in 6 hrs and going through a lot of erasers....if in fact, I could even do it.

His artistry is displayed in the design which for me would already be an insurmountable hurdle but for him, the design is indeed 10-15%. The actual engraving accounts for the remainder of his time.

Tim is able to "put different hats on" depending on the style of engraving....I always tell him to engrave my LRs so that his artwork doean't completely overshadow my LRs and is somewhat comparable to a "better original gunmaker w/ engraving skills". His top flight work is comparable to the best and wouldn't be appropriate on my LRs.

I 'm relating to Tim, but there are a few other engravers w/ comparable or perhaps better skills than Tim....but Tim would be in a very select group of engeavers.

Some say w/ practice and perseverence anybody can engrave LRs, but I disagree....having the "artist's eye" is an innate talent that most people don't have......Fred

 

[F.G. Ford]

Fred, you absolutely right.
Just to see and understand the period of engraving, as we do in the architecture of a rifle.
To make a muzzleloader, yes, but not an inline, entirely different concept.
A good engraver can duplicate a period engraving where we would not see it.
Fred

 

[jerrywh]

When considering the whole subject of firearms building, antique and modern, most builders do not engrave their own guns. In the field of muzzle loaders I would say that about 3/4 of them do or attempt to. Only about a dozen of them are good at it. That being said the original colonial gun makers were pretty poor engravers also, therefore amateur engraving is considered period correct on a long rifle if that is what you are building. Engraving is very intimidating to look at mostly because of it's size. A wood carving may encompass an area of a few inches whereas an engraving of the same design will only cover an area the size or you little fingernail. However the only reason most gun makers don't engrave is because they don't think they can. It's a mental block. It does take a lot of practice and study to be efficient. It takes years to be a master at it.

 

[kaintuck]

:haha:

 

[Tinker2]

Just a thought, but do most of the talented artist/engraver build their own guns?




William Alexander

 

[Zonie]

I once engraved the furniture on a Reading rifle I built.

It's only saving grace is that some of the less known gunmakers in the 18th century were no better at engraving than I am. :hmm:

After that experience, I learned to avoid trying to make scratches on my rifles. :rotf:

 

[kaintuck]

There is one fellow here, not only can he build, but he can engrave!....he owns a rocket propulsion outfit in Kaliforinia, and labels his work as fence posts! :hatsoff:

That fellow can do both.... :shocked2:

A rare combination......and if he's lurking about.....I wish he would do a "set" , rifle, powder horn, and with the usual tools found in a pouch....... Measure, pick etc......please, ! :bow:

Madmanmarc

 

[Col. Batguano]

Within the Schippers Book " Engraving Historic Firearms" he designates between historical LR engraving, and contemporary LR engraving. The same can be said for carving, which is covered and shown off quite a bit, but is not the main focus of the book. Basically, the main difference is the complexity and amount of detail in the designs. Historical engraving is generally much simpler, and has less shading going on.

If you're new to engraving, and your control isn't that good (yet), don't try the fancy stuff. Work up to it. An errant scratch, or squared curve is easier to overlook in a simple design than it is in a more intricate one. The simple reason is that a simpler design doesn't beg for a much closer and lengthy inspection like that that would be typical of a fine continental or English gun.

 

[kaintuck]

tomtom does a great job on the work bench posts.....i bet he could do some brass IF i let him! :rotf: :hmm: :surrender: :youcrazy:
marc

 

[Capt. Fred]

I do all my own engraving. I'm sure everybody is different, but it takes me as long to engrave a gun as to build it. And, most of that engraving time is spent in designing drawing. I'll bet 75% is in the drawing for me. I use a combination of hammer and chisel and a GRS system 3. It is still pretty rough work, when compared to Jerry Huddleston, "fence post man" LOL, or Tim Adlam, but I really enjoy it.

Here is some recent work:

 

[Col. Batguano]

Do you use the GRS3 for the main lines, and push / hammer & chase for the shading? Cutting a straight line with hammer & chase seems really hard.

I'm in the same boat. Carving and engraving takes as much time (most time spent in drawing / research / designing) or more than the rest of the build. Raised carving takes about 3-4x as much time as incised carving.

 

[jerrywh]

In reply to tinker. Most Engravers do not built their own guns. Some of the best engravers in America and in England have built muzzle loading firearms but seldom ever do now because of economics. Engraving pays a lot better than gun making. The best plain gun will probably sell for no more than a few thousand dollars whereas the same highly engraved gun might bring $200,000.00 or even more. Even a muzzle loader with super engraving can sell for hundreds of thousands.
Col. Batguano
Cutting a straight line can be learned in one day by a person with good hands and eyes. There is a method to it. Send me a personal message and I will tell you how.

 

[Capt. Fred]

Col. - That is exactly what I do. I use the hammer and chisel for the real small lines. On brass, I also use a push graver for small stuff like the cross hatching on shading and the center of those flowers on the patchbox.

The System 3 is a pretty coarse machine when compared to a system like Lindsay's gravers. I have used his palm tools that a friend has and they are so smooth that you can do everything with them.

I find that as I have gotten more comfortable with the system 3, that I use it for more and more, even for fine work. It involves playing around with different springs and PSI to get a lighter touch.

Oh - and the thing that made the biggest difference in my learning curve was the Lindsay sharpening system. Before that, I could not get consistent angles on my gravers and every time I sharpened them, I found myself having to change my angle of attack.

 

[Jim Kibler]

The majority of builders I know, engrave their own work. It's not an easy skill to become proficient at. As far as the quality of most original longrifle engraving goes, it certainly varies. Some can be quite crude, while some can be quite pleasing. Perhaps not on par with European or English work from a technical standpoint, but still very appealing. John Noll and George Eister are a couple of period gunsmiths whose engraving is quite nice. There are of course many others as well. Basic engraving appropriate for a longrifle is well within the reach of most doing this work today.

Jim