Doc Help: Landsknecht Matchlock Pistol?

[john wilson]

Love the quote Alden,sort of sums up my predicament with this pistol, all the experts know for sure that English matchlock pistols don't exist and yet here here is one...or so it seems Experts, being also expert in dodging difficult questions that question their expertise, won't commit (and who can blame 'em? no one wants to end up looking the fool). So I think this pistol may be of some historical significance, the bore is right,the style is right,the furniture is right and the patination is even throughout suggesting it's been together in this form for a hell of a long time,but I'm not an expert,therein lies the problem . Best expert appraisal I've got(Royal Armouries) is that it's 'probably early 19th cent. whimsy' now I'd like to meet the guy who put this thing together over a hundred years ago,shake his hand,congratulate him on his abilities and ask him why he took the trouble to do it and then leave it in a hole somewhere to go rusty? Doesn't make any sense to me. If it's a forgery, intended to deceive you'd expect to see attempts at giving it some provenence, like makers name or heavily rubbed barrel markings etc., none of that. Whatever this thing is, it was put together as it is a long time ago, that much the experts do agree on. They say there's a good possibility it may be colonial, but other than that there doesn't seem to be much interest, I would have thought they'd want to examine it thoroughly just in case, but no! I just don't get it, I could be wrong and this could be some 19th or even 20th century collectors homage to what an English civil war or early settlers matchlock pistol might look like, but why hasn't it been seen before.. or anything like it? If it were a well crafted modern piece,when in the hell are you going to find one of those locks?and who in their right mind is going to go to all that considerable cost, trouble and effort only to put it into a stock that would throw doubt onto its authenticity? Doesn't stack up. I think this thing may well belong on display either in the Tower Armoury or the NRA museum if it is a genuine thing, if it isn't it can stay with me quite happily because it's, as you so rightly say, sweet! Cheers John.

 

[Karl Helweg]

jet car willy - thank you for posting this matchlock pistol. It took a bit of work to convince my computer to let me see the pictures.

I am not sure that there is any surviving evidence of a Landsknecht carrying a matchlock pistol but this forum's "hivemind" has turned up some interesting matchlocks regardless. I am especially happy to have found this matchlock revolver: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=90849&stc=1 and shall probably be tempted to make one someday.

The person who originally asked (on another forum), Lars, appreciates this information too.

 

[john wilson]

Hi Karl, yes I've seen that one before myself on my travels round the net,bit of a beast and looks to be very well done but a bit 'vampire hunter'. Multi barrels are pretty damn impressive though,the French went wild in the 19th century with some of their pinfire creations,24 shot double barrelled revolvers! HUGE!!! Think if the Landsknecht ever did have matchlock pistols though they'd look a bit more like the one I have as it's in the European style. Hive mind..... Nice concept. . John.

 

[Karl Helweg]

Hi Karl, yes I've seen that one before myself on my travels round the net,bit of a beast and looks to be very well done but a bit 'vampire hunter'. Multi barrels are pretty damn impressive though,the French went wild in the 19th century with some of their pinfire creations,24 shot double barrelled revolvers! HUGE!!! Think if the Landsknecht ever did have matchlock pistols though they'd look a bit more like the one I have as it's in the European style. Hive mind..... Nice concept. . John.

Landsknecht were larger than life and certainly had a taste for exotic instruments of destruction but I doubt that the common line Landsknecht (Speistrager) would have had any sort of pistol. There is some evidence of officers carrying pistols. I imagine it like a modern infantryman finding a 1911 to carry - at first it would be a cool toy but after a few months of slugging around the extra weight in 100F+ weather and full battle gear the coolness would wear real thin.
My wheellock is about the size of a horse's leg so that revolver does not seem much bigger.
There was a contemporary type of mounted "mercenary" called Schwarze Reiter who were required to have a pair of wheellock pistols.

I found a nice little 6 shot pinfire and I have seen some of the over-the-top pinfire revolvers. I suspect that the reason that we have so many of these exotic "super guns" is that they turned out not to be so handy so did not get lost in the field or rust away.

 

[Alden]

OK, HERE's what a Landsknecht matchlock pistol (would have) looked like...



:wink:


Later fantasy might be more like...




Wheelocks, yeah...

 

[matthew.heilgmail.com]

Here's a 1906 Smith & Wesson impression of a Landsknecht(ish) with a matchlock pistol:

The style of the matchlock in the inset looks an awful lot later than 1525, though...

 

[john wilson]

Good point Alden, purely speculation on my part of course but I don't think it can be quite as clear cut as that,there was a huge overlap around this time,from what I understand matchlocks were being made alongside wheel locks and even flintlocks in the early stages because they were cheap and reliable,stocks would have varied in style to match the current fashion as time rolled by, (couple of hundred years I guess)Some were ball butted so they could be used as a club, others were square butted.Looking at what evidence remains pistols were almost exclusively wheelock and reserved for cavalry because of the difficulties of using match on horseback,(the Arabs and Afghanis seemed to have mastered that art though)whilst muskets were built for infantry.Wheel locks were out of the reach of 'mere mortals' and the only way you'd get one is by being rich or working for a rich patron. Landsknecht were mercenaries and worked for the highest bidder,(bit like the Samurai) but they were 'self employed' so I would imagine came fully equipped with their own weapons and picked up what they could on the battlefield if it was better than what they already had. You're probably right though the wheel lock and early doglock type stock with the square angled butt was probably too late in style for the Landsknecht,but as I said I'm not any kind of expert in this area. I am learning though. :hmm:

 

[john wilson]

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On the point of using match on horseback you may find interesting (if you don't already know), the way the Afghanis did it was by using the stock which hooked under the arm of the rider and the musket was held like a lance, the trigger was square to prevent snagging and it had a hole for a lanyard which the rider held in his teeth, he could therefore have his left hand free to control the reign. I tried it, it works (I wasn't on horseback though) A lot of the rifles have provision for a bayonet so it can be used as a spear/lance. I often wondered why the Afghan stocks were such an odd shape, they also had the butt of course which allowed then to be fired more accurately from the shoulder when on the ground. Clever stuff eh?

 

[john wilson]

'Having gathered these facts, Watson, I smoked several pipes over them, trying to separate those which were crucial from others which were merely incidental.' :hmm:

 

[robinghewitt]

'Having gathered these facts, Watson

Do you refer to Watson's old wound from his time in the army when he was shot with a Jezail? :hmm:

 

[john wilson]

Ha! another with a copy of the Conan Doyle songbook,Moriarty's behind this I'll wager,take this you fiend! :blah:

'Which is it today,' I asked, 'morphine or cocaine?'

He raised his eyes languidly from the old black-leather volume which he had opened.

'It is cocaine,' he said, 'a seven-per-cent solution. Would you like to try it?'

Touche Professor

 

[john wilson]

Look what I found. Not a pistol I know but the lock bears a remarkable similarity to the one I have. Neuchatel? that's Swiss ain't it? Curiouser and couriouser said Alice, maybe it was a Landsknecht pistol after all or a Vatican Guards codpiece backup?? :idunno:
http:///asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=A0914++++411+&refno=+++80090

 

[Karl Helweg]

I have seen this ad but did not look closely enough to notice that it was a matchlock rather than a wheellock until you mentioned it. I wonder if there was an original matchlock pistol that the artist used? There are uncountable artifacts in museum basements and private collections. To my eyes that curved grip bears a certain resemblance to the matchlock longarms of about 1525.

Alden - My understanding is that Lars, who lives in Denmark, plans to make his own matchlock pistol if he can find enough documentation to satisfy himself. Me, I'm cheap and already have a huge project list so I would just buy one.

jet car willy - It is a little curious that Europeans did not seem to develop the "camel gun hook" too. My lovely wife has a Sindhi jezail similar to this that is one of her favorite display guns. (I am not allowed to decorate with guns but she is. :hmm: )

 

[john wilson]

Best not try to fight it Karl,her guns will always be prettier than yours. I had an old Swedish Mauser over the fireplace for years, she dusted everything...except that. :yakyak: :surrender:

 

[Alden]

Willy;
U r in the UK so I could better understand that, but, you did explain to her it was a SWEDISH Mauser, right?

 

[john wilson]

Bit of a nickname for the Swedish Gevar 6.5mm service rifle, it was an improved model Mauser 1893, real nice thing,beautiful action. Therein lies my main focus of interest,early and turn of the century breach loaders, the matchlocks are decorators, I'd probably get on OK with Karls' wife.

 

[john wilson]

Breech! poxy predictive text again :cursing:

 

[Alden]

And what's hanging in my living room? A long-lever Martini-Henry with NCO's sword bayonet and proper buff sling -- lol.

 

[john wilson]

Way to go Alden,they don't get much more impressive than that! I love the Martinis, I've got a short lever civilian 577/450 by Chas. Osbourne cos I tend to go for sporting rifles these days, they fit the cabinet I got. The Gustav I had was getting on 5ft long with the bayonet on the end, and HEAVY with the full stock,but that's how they built 'em then,12inch closer to the enemy. :hatsoff:

 

[john wilson]

Get this, I used to have a deact WW1 Guryonov heavy machine gun on an ack-ack carriage living in the window at the top of the stairs, it had 6ft of belted ammo hanging down and dirty great steel wheels,awesome! . Great for keeping the burglars away. She never dusted that either! :haha: